Thursday, December 12, 2013

The Supreme Court of Westeros, ruling 5

Thursday is court day! 
Welcome to the Supreme Court of Westeros! Every week, three pressing questions from the community will be answered by the esteemed judges Stefan (from your very own Nerdstream Era) and Amin (from the Podcast of Ice and Fire). The rules are simple: we take three questions, and one of us writes a measured analysis. The other one writes a shorter opinion, either concurring or dissenting. The catch is that every week a third judge from the fandom will join us and also write a dissenting or concurring opinion. So if you think you're up to the task - write us an email to stefan_sasse@gmx.de, leave a comment in the post, ask in the POIAF-forum or contact Amin at his tumblr. Discussion is by no means limited to the court itself, though - feel free to discuss our rulings in the commentary section and ask your own questions through the channels above. 
One word on spoilers: we assume that you read all the books, including the Hedge Knight short stories, and watched the current TV episodes. We don't include the spoiler chapters from various sources in the discussion, with the notable exception of Theon I, which was supposed to be in "A Dance with Dragons" anyway.
And now, up to ruling 5 of the Supreme Court of Westeros! Our guest judge this week is Marc N. Kleinhenz, the editor of Tower of the Hand: A Flight of Sorrows and a freelancer who has written for 22 sites, including The Huffington Post, Westeros.org, Winter Is Coming, and, of course, Tower of the Hand.  He's co-created and -hosted two podcasts and has even taught English in Japan. The latest book he's publishing is Waiting for Winter: Re-Reading A Clash of Kings, Part I, by Remy Verhoeve.

Is Coldhands a Wight or the result of a R'hllor resurrection?

Main Opinion Stefan:
A wight, definitely. He has nothing to do with R’hollor, and please keep in mind that so far Thoros is the only one we know of who is able to do that kind of stuff. He is obviously a special wight, somehow won over by Bloodraven’s magic or some other force, but R’hollor almost certainly plays no part in it. Coldhands is COLD, damn it. However, we don’t really know whether Coldhands is any of those. The whights we met so far don’t talk, nor do they possess sentient thought. We know that Coldhands is dead, but it might even be that he is simply a body warged by Bloodraven or some shit like that (we never saw them at the same time, so it might be possible). Coldhands is special for sure, but his exact nature remains a mystery.

Concurring Opinion Amin:
I do think that there may be more resurrected pawns or even players on Team R’hlorr, but I agree with Justice Stefan that Colhands has nothing to do with R’hllorr. Coldhands is involved in Bloodraven, who Melisandre sees as an opponent, reinforcing this distinction. Justice Marc’s notion of warging [technically skinchanging] is interesting: is Coldhands a special wight because of his own personal atttributes or he is like any other wight, except that he’s been skinchanged?

Concurring Opinon: Marc Kleinhenz
My assumption has always been warging, definitely. Narratively speaking, much like General Grievous and Darth Vader inStar Wars: Revenge of the Sith, Coldhands operates as a bit of foreshadowing, preparing the audience – and Bran himself – for the ultimate, chess player-esque role Bran seems to be hurtling towards. (The sample Theon chapter from The Winds of Winter seems to reinforce this assumption, given that it can be easily interpreted as Bran helping to influence Theon’s fate, which is currently in the hands of Stannis Baratheon.) I wouldn’t be surprised to see dear Bran jumping in and out of various people’s bodies, whether living or dead, during the final war with the Others, as the Targaryens ride their dragons overhead, of course, spewing fire across the icy lands. The one major caveat to all this: we’ve never seen – or heard – of the dead being warged by anyone at all in the story, whether past or present. This could either mean that we’re charting new waters (much like Neo in the Matrix trilogy being able to manipulate Machines in the real world for the very first time in the films’ eight-hundred-year-long backstory) or that there’s something altogether different about the Others and, perhaps, their relationship to life/death/wights. It just may be that this could be a conduit for Bran – and the rest of our characters – to communicate with the Others with…

Final Verdict: Coldhands has nothing to with R'hollor's fire, he's ice.

Will Bran use his special new powers to drop a “land hammer” on the Neck and split Westeros in half to stop the advance of the Others?

Main Opinion Stefan:
That surely would come out of nowhere at the moment. But as I’m writing the sentence, I realize it’s wrong. We learn early on in the series that the Stepstones were once a land bridge to Essos and they connection over which the First Men invaded Westeros until the Children of the Forest destroyed it with some really creepy magic. Now, I’m usually a bit timid when it comes down to the reality of those supposedly historic events, but in this case, it seems to really have happened. A repetition, however, faces a serious problem: the Children of the Forest are fading from the world. It’s like asking Middle Earths elves to make all paths straight again. It would create some interesting drama, though, since while it might save the other half of Westeros, the North would be doomed to be the new Other realm - and the North is the real emotional anchor of the series and for Bran especially. Bittersweet? You betcha. Somehow, though, I don’t think it will happen. Perhaps it’s presented to Bran as a choice, and he will decline? Intruiging in any case.

Concurring opinion Amin:
I concur with my colleages in that I do not think it will happen. If it is in relation to the traditional powers of the Children of the Forest (and their greenseers), while they may have been fading, magic is growing in the world again. However, if the legends are true, they tried already and failed to fully separate the Neck, unlike the creation of the Stepstones. And I’m not sure how exactly that would stop the Others, even if we hadn’t heard about “dead things” in the water by Hardhome.

Concurring Opinion: Marc Kleinhenz
My first instinct, much like Stefan’s, was to say that that would, indeed, be a rather random occurrence, as I completely forgot about the legend of the children of the forest and the Stepstones. And hearing about that ill-fated land bridge brings to mind the Doom of Valyria, another geological event that just may involve a magical instigation. In fact, seeing as how Martin has said time and time again that the years-long weather cycle has a fantasy base (read: the Others), it’s entirely possible that Bran’s burgeoning powers will maturate into Jedi Godhood territory; there’s obviously a fundamental connection between magic and nature, with dragons most likely acting as some type of conduit between the two. With that said, however, I, also like Stefan, would be surprised to see it actually happen in the series. I rather suspect that we’ll see the extinction/permanent exile of the Others, the stabilizing of the seasons, and all sorts of other damage to and ruination of the land that won’t be caused by titanic Force pushes.

Final Verdict: No, they won't. The Others need to be stopped by other devices. 

Will Stannis become the Nightking?

Main Opinion Stefan:
The Nightking was seduced by an Other princess, and Stannis is already seduced by Melisandre, who is the exact opposite. He’s more of a light king, isn’t he? Or a Dayking. I think the Others will be defeated by the end of the series, so Stannis will most likely not become the Nightking, at least not for long. It’s much more in line for him to go the way Bloodraven went, at least insofar as he could become the next Lord Commander. He’s not on the road to evil, but to that place in heaven or hell where he can join ranks with Henry Kissinger. That’s not to say that he wouldn’t use the powers of the Others in order to gain his throne. That’s the only scenario I can see for this to play out: him being offered in no uncertain terms to use the powers of winter in order to get to his enemies and to seat himself on the Iron Throne. It would echo “The Lord of the Rings” a bit, with the seduction of the One Ring, and we know that Martin repeatedly cites it as his main inspiration, so...but if I have to decide, I’d say no, he won’t become the Night King. That just doesn’t feel right.

Concurring Opinion Amin:
Before we had Melisandre’s chapter in ADWD, this was a far greater possibility. Now we know she at least thinks she is fighting the good fight against the others, even if she may still be in the wrong on some things. This significantly dampens the chances of Stannis becoming another Nightking, though there are some similarities to the overall story if Stannis’ trust and use of Melisandre eventually leads to his downfall.

Concurring Opinion: Marc Kleinhenz
Henry Kissinger? Ha! Ignoring Stannis and his realpolitik, this story of the Night’s King caught my attention during my most recent re-read earlier this year, and it certainly made me think of the would-be King Baratheon. In this case, though, I see it less as foreshadowing and more as thematic counterpoint; I think this story absolutely describes Stannis and his current situation, though his ultimate fate, methinks, is still very much up in the air (well, in terms of his eternal damnation, at least). Not everything in Martin’s saga – or any narrative, for that matter – needs to be literal, nor should it be taken literally. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar, and a dewback is just a dewback; sometimes, the most potent form of worldbuilding is whimsical or, at the very least, a non-essential detail. 

Final Verdict: Stannis will not become the Nightking. 

17 comments:

  1. The Land Hammer theory sure is fascinating. The fact that both Bran and Arya are working for entities with the power to break land masses does seem like more than a coincidence...

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  2. but in the series, Stannis sees with Mel that he will betray everything he loves and he will get the throne ; does this fit with your final verdict ?

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  3. "The fact that both Bran and Arya are working for entities with the power to break land masses does seem like more than a coincidence"

    ...Arya is? Please explain

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    1. Maybe it goes back to the speech Arya's teacher gave about the slaves of Valyria praying for death? I'm not convinced this means the Faceless Men were the cause of the Doom, but if they were, it fits.

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    2. Yeah, my comment referenced the theory that the Faceless Men were responsible for the (land-shattering) Doom of Valyria, with Hardhome as a test run.

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    3. I don't think that Hardhome was used as some kind of experiment, but more like a place that suffered some king of natural disaster or an attack by some magic forces (maybe the Others?).
      I always though that the same could be said about the "Doom of Valyria", the place was full of active volcanoes and probably had a lot of seismic activity after all. We know now that such places would end up creating a natural calamity that would change the whole area should it explode. Maybe the slaves speed up the process with all their digging, opening up lava veins or some other crazy sh*t; either on purpose or because of the greed of the Valyrians. What do you think Stefan?

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    4. No clue, really. Have to wait for more information.

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    5. I think it does make sense that the FM were heavily involved in the Doom of Valyria, but probably more in the way that perhaps they assassinated key magic-users who held the overabundant forces of Fire in place, or something like that. That couldn't be repeated in a place less infused with Elemental Fire.

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  4. A question regarding Illyrio: If he and Varys plan to have Aegon on the throne, why bother keeping Viserys and Dany for so long? He let them stay in his home for a year! Why not just eliminate them right there at home?

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    1. Varys and Illyrion only thought about them as B plans since their ultimate goal seems to be to put Aegon on the throne (Targaryen or Blakfyre). They probably planned to use them as pawns depending on the situation:
      -As bait/distractions for the Usurper's agents.
      -As means to hurt Westeros's military strength with an invading army (Thanks to Daenerys marriege with Drogo).
      -As candidates to a marriage alliance (Viserys+Arianne for example).
      -As a possible wife to Aegon (after she got the dragons).
      The possibilities change with the political situation, so they could have been useful one way or another. What we can probably agree on is that they never cared about their well being, but on how to use them for their schemes; Dany knew that form the beginning so it should not surprise us.

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  5. Yo Stefan! I posted a question a while back on your thoughts on the "Great Spring Sickness" and why it managed to kill some Targs even with their supposed immunity to most diseases. I just wanted to know if its still on the list.
    I also gave it some thought and came to the conclusion that the "Magic Blood" might not be so effective on the Targs that inherited less of their Valyrian traits (like the ones that got Dornish looks like Breakspear).

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    1. Yo Anonymous,

      the question is still in the tube. Our list is pretty long.

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  6. For consideration:

    Do all three "...and once for love" prophecies from tHotU relate to a single person, and if so, is it Jon?

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  7. Stefan, here's a question for the court, why did Valyria at the height of its power never make any attempt to conquer Westeros?

    Valyria is obviously analagous to ancient Rome and Westeros is analogous too although much larger than Britain. So it's as if Rome at the height of its power never even attempted to conquer Britain yet after the fall of Rome some remnant legion did so. Sure Aegon had dragons but presumably Valyria had more.

    cheers,
    Pete

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    1. What's to gain?

      The reason the Romans hit Britain (and most other barbarian areas) was because they had troubles with raids and invasions coming from there. As far as we know, the Westerosi kingdoms were too busy fighting with each other to seriously annoy the Valyrians.

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    2. I think I already talked about this in a previous issue, back when it was Stefan's Theory Hour.

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