Welcome to the Supreme Court of Westeros! Every week, three pressing questions from the community will be answered by the esteemed judges Stefan (from your very own Nerdstream Era) and Amin (from the Podcast of Ice and Fire). The rules are simple: we take three questions, and one of us writes a measured analysis. The other one writes a shorter opinion, either concurring or dissenting. The catch is that every week a third judge from the fandom will join us and also write a dissenting or concurring opinion. So if you think you're up to the task - write us an email to stefan_sasse@gmx.de, leave a comment in the thread or contact Amin at his tumblr. Discussion is by no means limited to the court itself, though - feel free to discuss our rulings in the commentary section and ask your own questions through the channels above.
One word on spoilers: we assume that you read all the books, including the Hedge Knight short stories, and watched the current TV episodes.
And now, up to ruling 1 of the Supreme Court of Westeros! Our guest judge this week is Steven Attewell from "Race For The Iron Throne".
Is Gendry Robert's and Cersei's real son?
Main Opinion: Stefan
I really, really don't get where all these crackpot theories come from. Of course he's not. Why would he be? I guess the idea came up with the first season of "Game of Thrones", because Cersei admitted in the series that she had a child with Robert that dies quickly, a boy with black hair. While it might be possible that the child was somehow spirited away by Cersei or Varys or some other person, I don't exactly see how or, more to the point, why. Gendry had a totally normal childhood in Flea Bottom, which means that he was threatened with death on a daily basis, without anybody intervening. That only happened once Jon Arryn searched for Robert's bastards and casually cared for them (in Gendry's case, setting up the apprenticeship). Plus, the show is not the books, and in the books, Cersei is pretty adamant about not ever having carried a child of Robert's, even confessing to licking the semen of her hands and sex, enjoying the thought that she was "eating his children". Do you really believe the small detail that she once had a child, actually, would slip even her demented mind? I don't.
Concurring Opinion: Amin
This truly is a crackpot theory that probably would never have existed, if not for that line mentioned in the HBO show. In addition, the point of that line was not to inspire this kind of theory, but rather to build up Cersei’s backstory and show sympathy, with middling results. What’s amusing is that line has inspired other TV based crackpot theories like Jon being that (missing) black haired child of Robert and Cersei.
Concurring Opinion: Steven Attewell
Given that the black-haired child that died of a fever only existed in show canon, I think it’s pretty clear that Gendry isn’t Robert and Cersei’s child. It doesn’t even work in show canon, as Cersei describes in Episode 2 that the child “tried to beat the fever that took him...such a little thing.” The black-haired child died in infancy; Gendry has childhood memories of his mother that indicates she died when he was significantly older than infancy.
Moreover, the motives for the child’s abduction and being raised as a Flea Bottom urchin don’t really make much sense - Robert wouldn’t do it because his first-born son would cement his dynasty, Cersei wouldn’t do it because in show-canon she hadn’t given up on her marriage at that point, Pycelle wouldn’t interfere with a legitimate Baratheon/Lannister heir, Varys wouldn’t do it because it’s not in his interest to preserve a legitimate Baratheon/Lannister heir, and Littlefinger wasn’t in King’s Landing at the time.
Final Verdict: This is a crackpot theory, nothing more.
Do you think Barristan Selmy will live to see Dany be crowned?
Main Opinion: Stefan
I'm not sure anyone is going to see Dany being crowned, because I'm not sure she will be. It might well be possible that the whole thing of fighting the Others and going about in Westeros with dragons will prove to be mortal, forever vanishing magic from the world - and her with it. But let's assume that doesn't happen, Dany will get crowned and rule happily ever after, like Aragorn in Lord of the Rings, then I guess Barristan will be around, yes. Can't say why I think that, exactly, it's more like one of my many narrative hunches. Can't see him die, because it doesn't seem to me Dany needs a shock like this anymore. Instead, I'd rather think the personal drama of Barristan could add a new chapter when he realizes he serves yet another crazy Targaryen.
Dissenting Opinion: Amin:
I agree with Justice Stefan that there is no guarantee that Dany will live to be crowned or be otherwise crowned. Rephrasing the question as to whether Barristan will outlive Dany, I will disagree with my esteemed colleague. As he admitted, this is more in the realm of hunches than anything can be logically predicted one way or another. I have a feeling that Barristan will have the chance to go down fighting in Dany’s cause. Let’s hope it is that, rather than a dagger in the back from the Shavepate or another Ned-like fall.
Dissenting Opinion: Steven Attewell
I agree with Justice Amin that Ser Barristan’s fate is most likely a glorious death in Dany’s service. Consider the overarching theme of Ser Barristan’s life - here’s a perfect knight who, through no fault of his own, has failed in his duty to two kings and desperately wants to redeem himself before he dies. The archetypal Kingsguard was Aemon the Dragonknight, who died saving the king from assassins. What better death for Ser Barristan?
Final verdict: Ser Barristan will die valiantly in Dany's service, likely before she is crowned.
What is the significance of Bran's and Arya's story arc?
Main Opinion: Stefan
I guess when you say "significance", it means "why the fuck is this in there and not more battles and politics and stuff"? It's a question that is usually directed at Brienne's storyline, since Arya and Bran are more beloved characters. Let's start with Bran, since he's easiest to talk about in that respect. He's our eye into the magic of the north, its past and its future, and he is the guy who will play a pivotal role in the conflict of ice and fire. Arriving at Bloodraven and starting his training, he echoes journeys like the one Luke Skywalker took, only - typical Martin - with a far darker edge, because it seems unlikely he will ever return. The price for his powers is way higher than usually in these kinds of stories (also see an upcoming essay of mine on that topic). For Arya, the question is more difficult, because we can't really see what role she has to play, not currently. She's being trained as an assassin, and as with Bran, the price for it is really, really high. But I can't possibly say where the journey will go at the moment.
Concurring Opinion: Amin
I agree with the assessment of Bran’s arc, though I still hope that he will somehow escape becoming a permanent feature of Bloodraven’s tree-net. To add to Arya, she does give a consistent perspective into what is happening with the smallfolk in Westeros, before heading to Essos anyway. George is sometimes criticized for not having ‘lowborn POVs’, but Arya and others like Brienne do at least let us see what is happening to the lowborn, smallfolk, and others not seen much in the other POVs.
Concurring in Part, Dissenting in Part:
Steven Attewell
I agree that Bran Stark follows a mystic variant of the hero’s journey - complete with the opening of the third eye and a quest that takes him through various levels of truth similar to the mystery cults. He’s certainly something of a deconstruction of the same- his “magical birthright” comes with some serious immoral aspects like the warging into Hodor, his warging into his wolf is a dangerous and potentially addictive form of escapism, and he’s never going to walk again. Where it ends up, we simply don’t know. Relative lack of chapters means insufficient evidence.
Arya’s plotline is even more clearly a deconstruction of the hero’s journey, given that her path is leading her to loss of self rather than acquisition of self-knowledge and self-control. If I were a betting man, I’d say the point in the narrative where Arya breaks with the league of assassins is coming up soon.
Final Verdict: Bran's and Arya's storylines serve the narrative function of deconstructing the "heroe's journey", a common fantasy trope.
great work, really enjoyed the new format!
ReplyDeleteI'm thoroughly impressed with what you have so far, though I'd like to see even larger walls of text for future opinions. Where do we submit cases for review by the Court?
ReplyDeletePer mail or here in the thread.
DeleteThis was a ton of fun, and an effective format for evaluating some of these theories. (There's some real slippage in how the fandom uses "theory" and "speculation," I've noticed.)
ReplyDeleteI would love to be considered for a guest spot as the third judge. My mother's a magistrate-- maybe some of that articulate-and-fair-minded-rulings gene rubbed off on me.
Please write an email so we can get in contact with you.
Delete"Who are you?" asked the Kindly Man.
ReplyDelete"My name is Arya of House Stark. Daughter of the true Warden of the North, Eddard Stark. Daughter to murdered parents, sister to a murdered King. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next."
*Arya then reclaims Needle*
Unlikely to ever happen, but I would love to see Arya remember who she is.
On arya, I think she will remember who she will remember who she is, but it won't happen in winds of winter. I'm pretty sure winds of winter sees her life finally starting to calm down, with her getting bigger and bigger assignments as she gets deeper involved in the faceless men cult. I think Winds of Winter will end pretty big, with her getting assigned to kill someone close to her from her previous life. Now that jon is dead (for now) my guess is either sansa, or someone from her list. One would bring her back to her roots, while the other would give her that first taste of blood, possibly causing some sort of rampage/cleansing/10 year old ninja girl slaughtering every last noble in king's landing/Quentin Tarantino's wet dream.
ReplyDeleteOn Bran, I actually think he will return, and in a big way. So far, he's the only character that really follows the hero's journey, and he follows it pretty much Masters-In-English verbatim. I'm sure people will argue with me on this, but this is why I think Bran is the main character of ASOIAF. His arc is, uniquely, almost isolated from other characters, excepting the reeds and hodor. He's just started the approach and preparation, which likely continues through the Winds of Winter. I would guess he escapes at the end of winds of winter, a changed character to face the ordeal.
He's the ice of ice & fire with Dany as fire and Jon as a combo.
DeleteWith Arya, she's been referred strongly as the spitting image of Lyanna. If the narrative is to have some reflection of Lyanna's story, nothing about the events that lead to Robert's Rebellion seem to be happening within Arya's arc. If the narrative will have that reflective angle, seems to me that will mean Arya will have a strong hand in events surrounding the Iron Throne by the story's end.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Arya reflects Lyanna. The whole tragic love Story angle is missing, and that's the most important aspect about Lyanna, I guess.
DeleteI loathe to discard characterizations presented in the first book. As GRRM says he originally thought trilogy would at least leave open that the first book doesn't have room for red herrings and heightens the implications presented there in the text. Specifically, it's Ned that says that Arya reminds him of Lyanna, which Arya is taken aback by since she thinks of Lyanna as beautiful and herself as not. Where that is supposed to take us besides Arya will grow into herself I'm not certain. Of course Arya doesn't have a tragic love story yet, as she's not of the same age as Lyanna at the Tourney of Harrenhal. But if there's supposed to be meaning besides that Arya will grow up with her comparison with Lyanna, some other element of the story seems it will come around, or more that the definition of Arya's Arc is not quite done and it isn't just a linear path of where she is and the end game of the story. As always, we can all be wrong :)
DeleteArya is like Lyanna! She's wild, she wants to play at swords, etc. That doesn't mean she shares her character arc.
Delete"Instead, I'd rather think the personal drama of Barristan could add a new chapter when he realizes he serves yet another crazy Targaryen."
ReplyDeleteThis was possibly the most heartbreaking thing I've ever read. That's like, so upsetting. Honestly shaken by that sentence.
But amazing analysis! Can't wait to read more of these. Short, fun, and fantastic. :)
excellent trial, 3 good judges
ReplyDeleteI see Arya's arc as the dynamic tension between the power to actualize a deep desire (action) and the understanding of self (being). Stated more specifically concerning Arya:
ReplyDeleteShe can only gain the power to exact revenge if she gives up her sense of self and her social role. As Arya Stark will not have the power to avenge her family. However, if she becomes a full fledged faceless woman she will have that ability but the one who wants revenge will no longer "exist" and will be restrained by her oaths.
This dynamic tension must drive her storyline. As someone who grew up in Westeros she is well suited to be sent there. However, she is expressly forbidden from killing anyone she knows, or killing without orders. I think she will meet up with a family member and be hard tested to decide whether to follow Arya's path of vengeance.
Will she meet her mother and be called to kill Lord Frey? She has already shown warging ability and Nymeria seems to be building a wolf army, so the Riverlands is an interesting destination.
Alternatively, the Bravosi hate dragons and Jaqen H'ghar is in Oldtown perhaps working on learning how to kill them. Perhaps Jon will be in some way using dragons to fight wights (possibly even a dragon being warged by Bran) and she will be tasked to kill it. I think it is most likely that she comes face to face with Jon, because of they were closest with one another emotionally.
And just possibly her arc will be a parable of the damage that revenge can do to one's self and she will meet the Hound who will imbue her with his new found compassion for others. But, this last is boring and too simple.
Lastly, turning ones back on the most powerful cult of assassins in the world does not seem to be a healthy choice. I see a dark end for her...
Logically, the law forbidding you to kill anyone you know pretty much rules out Westerosi targets. I'd guess, if that logic applies, that she's sent into Dany's vicinity.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteIt would seem that one has to be on a first name basis with the person for the edict to apply. She would have been able to target Balon Greyjoy, for instance. But, Dany will be (maybe) moving closer to Arya, so it may be that they cross. I think the important part is that Arya must come to face a family member to resolve the tension that makes her character arc significant.
DeleteHere comes my theory, care to poke some possible holes in it? I believe that Davos Seaworth will be crowned king in the end of all of this. We have read as he has risen through the ranks of knight, landed noble, and eventually hand. I think George R.R. Martin is telling a very long rags to riches story concerning an unassuming common man, with a good heart, that has nearly lost everything he holds dear beacuase of his values.
ReplyDeleteThanks! The question is on the list. Scheduled for February 6th. It's a long list.
DeleteQUESTION: Was the child who the Targaryen's switched with baby Aegon (before Gregor Clegane dashed it against a Wall) actually the son of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne (thus leading to her suicide). After all, the Dayne family bear an uncanny resemblance to the Targaryens, and so one of their children could pose as the prince.
ReplyDeleteDitto.
DeleteRe: Barristan, I agree with the judgment but not the reasoning. I agree with Stefan that Barristan's arc will definitely be more complex than simply "dying in Dany's service." The increasing destruction of the Dany/Aegon war will force Barristan to ask himself whether he is on the right side, and revisit his earlier assessment that Dany does not have the "taint." I think he will end up attempting to act against Dany, and things will go poorly for him, so he will indeed die before she is crowned.
ReplyDeleteWow. You mean he will throw in his lot with Aegon? That would be a real tragic end.
DeleteNot sure, it depends how Dance of the Dragons II gets started and plays out. One could imagine Ser Barristan having serious misgivings about Dany fighting a civil war to take the throne away from her own apparent nephew and Dorne, but deciding to stay with her initially, and only gradually becoming convinced that Dany is going too far. But I feel his concern about the "taint" is setup that will be returned to later on as Dany goes darker.
DeleteI would like to see a debating discussion on why Sansa and the Hound have differing opinions on if they kissed.
ReplyDeleteThey don't differ. Both remember that they did, but the text doesn't support this. I guess you want to ask after that. Put it on the list for February 13th.
Delete...Sandor makes no mention of kissing Sansa whatsoever, so yes, they do differ.
DeleteWith regards to Gendry's parentage, I think it's important to keep an eye to the big picture themes GRRM is making about the nature of victory. Robert wins a glorious rebellion and becomes king, but is ultimately left with less than his friends and rivals: he dies a embarrassingly mundane death as a has-been glutton, without even trueborn children to carry on his line. If Gendry is Robert's legitimate heir this entire thematic narrative is undone.
ReplyDeleteThanks, good point!
DeleteLoving the new format Stefan. Kudos!!
ReplyDeleteCan GRRM finish the saga satisfactorily? All questions answered? Loose ends carefully knitted together? But with intriguing lengering mysteries to chew on in the future?
ReplyDeleteOr has the plot exploded like one of those cans of springy worms and there's no way to put them into a cohesive order? And can it be done in only two books?
Scheduled for February 13th.
DeleteIs Penny Tyrion's daughter via Tysha ?
ReplyDeleteDitto.
DeleteJaime and Brienne near Raventree: Do they survive? Does one of them survive? How do they survive? To me, that's the single greatest hanging thread at the end of ADWD. I'm fairly certain that Stannis will survive the Siege of Winterfell, also somewhat sure that Jon Snow will return/is not dead in TWOW. And I'm nigh certain that Daenerys comes back to Meereen and the Yunkish slavers are defeated outside of Meereen. But I have no clue how Jaime and/or Brienne survive the encounter with the BWB and Lady Stoneheart.
ReplyDeleteSo, maybe the best way to ask the question in a judicial way would be: Will Jaime and/or Brienne die at the hands of Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood Without Banners?
Scheduled for February 20th.
DeleteCongratulations for the new format. I loved it.
ReplyDeleteCersei's trial : if the champion of The Faith has a hand deft enough to simply knock off Robert Strong’s helmet a lifeless face or an entirely missing head altogether would instantly be exposed to an on looking crowd of vassals, holy men and peasants alike. Under accusations of breaking sacred laws against necromancy from The Faith, Cersei and the Lannister rule in King’s Landing would swiftly crumble under the weight of a peasant revolt supported by the reinstated Faith’s Militant.
ReplyDeleteHow much do you bet on this theory ?
Scheduled for February 20th.
DeleteJaime is left with one route of escape, the famed trial-by-combat ceremony.Maybe he will fight against Brienne ; do you consider likely that they will twist and fight together against Bwb to save Pod ?
ReplyDeleteDitto.
DeleteWhile Ramsay's days are probably numbered, I've heard some speculation that Roose Bolton may manage to survive (at least for the time being) whether by holding out at Winterfell or (more likely) by escaping before it falls. Anyway, my question is this: Do you think Roose Bolton has any plausible escape routes left at this point or is he basically a dead man walking?
ReplyDeleteScheduled for March 6th.
DeleteThis seems like a basic question that we probably already have an answer to, but I haven't seen it. Who would take (the trappings of) power in King's Landing now that Kevan is dead? My best guess for Regent would have to be Mace Tyrell. Do you see any other option? There are simply no able or experienced relatives of Tommen's on hand to be Regent. Cersei might be exonerated in a trial by combat, some Lannister (Genna?) might travel to King's Landing to serve, or someone as left-field as Lancel might be pushed forward by the faith, but until then, who's ruling?
ReplyDeleteIs Ramsay's and Roose's story pointing toward one of them killing the other? And in that case whowill be the killer and who will be the "victim"?
ReplyDeleteWe have a question coming up regarding the Bolton heritage, I think that'll cover that as well.
DeleteWill we even get another Bran chapter? He seems to be closing in on Littlefinger/Varys territory where he just knows too much to function as a POV character. I assume we'll go back to the cave at least one more time (Meera maybe?), but I also agree Bran's not coming back south of the Wall.
ReplyDeleteOn the list. April 3rd, by the way. Yes, we have many questions :)
Delete