Catelyn Stark is one of the most controversial characters of the whole franchise, and in a side-discussion over at the Tower of the Hand I got into an argument with user mirdad, which merits a bigger response, so I used this to let you all take part if you so desire. His argument, edited for clarity:
My main beef with Catelyn is that she doesn't have political savvy in the "real" world. She is like Sansa with the "well, no one would violate guest rights" style of thinking. I have a great question, who was winterfells master of whispers? Who was keeping an eye on the queen during Roberts hunt? not even to spy, but just as a courtesy? Why were the Lannisters not under close watch the entire time? Why didn't Ned have his agents infiltrate all corners of Kings Landing before he arrived? They thought themselves above the game and they got played. Being the man means you have to get your hands a little dirty, I get that Ned and Cat were noble and trust me I loved them at first. But as the series has unfolded we see how hopelessly outgunned they were as far as intelligence gathering and spycraft was concerned. That's my whole point about Jeyne, yeah that wasn't necessarily Catelyn FAULT but damn northerners get your king a few camp followers. A 16 year old after a battle is going to put his dick in something, they should have controlled the something. It's that fantasy of nobility, the "my son is noble and good, and pure, and he is already promised to another' yeah, cuz Ned would never have done that right? oh wait, you raised his bastard after he did the same damn thing. Alleged bastard anyway. This is all viewed through my lenses of having a mother that guided me through the complicated ugliness that is life and death and politics with a deft hand, so Catelyn has always represented that naïve woman over her head surrounded by sharks and thinking she is going to survive with breathing through a straw and reading the good book. [...] I'm conflicted about my feelings on the matter, but it really has bugged me since my first reading. [...]So, let's go at it.
First, of course she has redeeming qualities. She's a great and loving mother, very open-minded about her children and giving them their freedom as well as restraining them. Just look at them. None is spoiled or damaged even remotely like so many other kids in this series.
Second, no one has a Master of Whisperers save the king, especially not Winterfell. What would he report about? There is no large court and no city at Winterfell that would merit the gigantic expense of such an institution. And make no mistake, the Master of Whisperers in King's Landing is effectively a court spy.
Third, why did no one keep an eye on Cersei? Because she's a guest and the queen and the situation has enough tension as is. They basically divided the castle, giving a part over to the king and his family and their many, many retainers. Besides, Jaime and Cersei tricked their own retainers, so how another one no one would trust anyway change the equation?
Fourth, you're utterly mistaken about Robb. He fought several battles without putting his dick anywhere. It was only when he was wounded that an opportunity arose, and he only took it because of the life-shattering event of Rickon's and Bran's death. Without this intervention of fate, he would never have slept with Jeyne. Catelyn was right to trust him, because she raised a true lord. Robb is more responible with 15 as Edmure or Robert are with over 30.
Fifth, Catelyn is everything but naive. She has an incredibly sharp view of political situations and is an excellent judge of characters, save for the people she personally cares about (Littlefinger and Edmure, especially). Some of the most sage counsel in the whole series comes from Catelyn.
Sixth, the deck is stacked against her and the Starks because Martin simply WANTS this to happen. Look at the incredible odds of all of this happening. In 99 out of 100 cases, the Starks are fine. These are odds that any insurance agency would love to have.
Seventh, jumping to Ned, he didn't send anyone into King's Landing to scout because it's not his style. He doesn't have anyone who even can do this (just look at the mess of Cassel's "secret mission" with Catelyn) and wouldn't even know where to start. He knows nothing about King's Landing other than it's the capital and he hates the place. He's also not thinking that he needs to do so because he has the king and his Small Council on his side, which is stacked by Barristan Selmy, Stannis and Renly - all honorable and/or enemies of the Lannisters by default - and knows not to trust either Littlefinger, Pycelle or Varys. He's pretty save on these counts, and point six applies to him as well. His tenure as Hand would have been succesful if Martin hadn't wanted him to fail and crafted an incredibly elaborate timeline of events that ensured his downfall.
To elaborate on all of these matters, I highly recommend Steven Attewell's rereads of AGOT and ACOK. He makes all these arguments in length and backed by textual evidence.
Solid Defense, I think some people want to come to simple 'neat' conclusions that wrap everything up nicely, so you get people putting all the blame on characters like Catelyn and/or Robb for essentially everything that went wrong in the war of the 5 Kings.
ReplyDeleteThink so, yes. There's a clear need for easily solutions in politics, whether in the real world or in fantasy.
DeleteIn retrospect Winterfell should have had a master of whisperers or someone doing some such function albeit at a reduced level. Olenna Tyrell, Stannis Baratheon, Doran Martell, Twyin Lannister seem much better informed howsoever they achieve it. In previous generations how would the Southron Ambitions plan have worked without it? Winterfell would have to trust the other Great Houses. A good plan then, but not now.
ReplyDeleteUnrelated but a question. I always wondered how Qyburn would be able to take over as Master of Whispers so quickly after Varys disappeared. Do you think he somehow used Varys's network or that Varys fed him information, or even that Qyburn is now a tool (witting or unwitting) of Varys?
The Starks are extremely well-informed about the North, and that's what was important. Eddard in his 15 years of rule had never any intention to look south, because his buddies Robert and Jon had everything covered. That's why they don't know that much about the rest. They didn't need to. Still, Eddard knows who sits in the Small Council and who is boss of the City Watch, which is impressive enough.
DeleteQuestion is in court.
DeleteThe only critique I have of Catelyn is how she treated Jon. I understand her husband keeping his "bastard" in full view is a smudge to her honor but obviously you can't blame Jon. He was nothing but a good brother to her children. She may have the worry of him "he'll try to overthrow Robb" - but talk to him and you'd know that's not true. The scene when he's saying goodbye to Bran is especially painful. At this point Cat knows he's taking the black, will never be a threat to Robb, Bran etc and she's downright nasty to him.
ReplyDeleteCatelyn goes out of her way to treat Jon Snow well. In fact, that's absolutely one of her redeeming qualities. I want to remind you how other people treat their bastards. Cersei kills them. Roose Bolton leaves the babe with its mother to essentially die. Many aren't recognized and sentenced to short and brutish lives. And so on. Catelyn doesn't love Jon, and she doesn't need to. With the one exception in AGOT, where she was traumatized and griefstricken, she never once worked against Jon. She didn't try to impede his way up the ladder and let him be like a brother for her children and in a position that was sure to be influential in the northern hierarchies. She's showing remarkable restraint, given how much only looking at Jon hurts her. That's absolutely admirable.
DeleteHi Stefan,
DeleteI'm a fan of your work in the fandom. I was recently discussing this topic with my friends and while I get your point about the bastards treatment, personally I can't discount the mental abuse she inflicted on Jon by letting everybody in Winterfell know you hate the kid, even her own children, and you can see this in Sansa reflections about Jon, how she thinks less of him to a degree (to me thats her mother influence even if she never utter words of hate towards him in her presence, altought I doubt it) and on Robb questioning him about her reaction to his visit to Bran, this without knowing what really happened there. Now Ned is more guilty here for choosing to raise him in Winterfell but that does not excuse Lady Stark in my eyes.
Anyhow, during this chat about Catelyn, a question came up on whether LadyS will ever meet Jon, and while I think that is more than extremely unlikely because it does not make any sense to the narrative, it did left me wondering whether LS will eventually encountered someone Cat cared about and if it will make any difference to her actions? (By the way i'm not counting Brienne 'cause i believe catelyn had lost hope on that front while she was alive). Anyway do you have an opinion on the matter?
Thanks in advance for reading the comment and keep up the great work you do on all things ASOIAF.
I think mental abuse is way too hard a word. Yes, she wasn't exactly nice to Jon, but again, given the circumstances she showed remarkable restraint.
DeleteThanks for all the kind words!
Here are the problems I have with Catelyn. First she released Jaime which was the biggest mistake she made. Second the arranged marriage she had worked out with the Frey's. The marriage of Rob, the first born son of Winterfell, to some lowly Frey girl was a terrible deal. Yes it saved them some time, but in the end it cost them their lives. She had three other children she could have arranged marriages for. Third she should have never been near the battlefields to begin with. She went to King's Landing, and then took Tyrion captive, which accomplished nothing, andthen instead of going back to Winterfell to be with the rest of her children she decided to join Rob and hang around Riverrun, losing Winterfell to the Iron Born, and eventually her children. Catelyn also convinces Rob to let Roose Bolton to command the infantry rather than Greatjon Umber, In conclusion if she had never gone to Kings Landing to accomplish nothing the War of Five Kings would have gone very differently.
ReplyDeleteOooooookay, let's go at this.
Delete1) Yes, of course.
2) It was the best deal they could make. It didn't only "save them some time", it saved them the war. Had Robb either attacked the Twins or marched at Tywin, he would have gone down. Frey could exact such a high price because he had a very rare item highly sought after. Plus, the army was strengthened by 4000 men.
3) Catelyn never was near a battlefield. Taking Tyrion captive was a clever move, and she couldn't anticipate that Lysa would set him free. She also couldn't anticipate that Theon would capture Winterfell because NO ONE anticipated that. I also don't see how she would have singlehandedly fought off Theon's invasion had she been in Winterfell.
4) Letting Roose command was a mistake, yes, but so was Greatjon Umber.
5) If Catelyn never had gotten to King's Landing, Eddard would have been captured by Tywin Lannister.
In regards to her being in the battlefield I did not mean it in a literal sense. if she is advising her son who to put in charge of the infantry she is in the battlefield, or in the camp.
DeleteHad she not been there I am sure someone else could have negotiated with Walder the terms to let them cross the Twins. Say for instance Robb had gone himself and negotiated his own marriage, perhaps he would have not ended up with Jayne, or the terms would not require Robb marrying a Frey at all. We do not know how the negotiations between Catelyn and Walder went, but I imagine if anyone other than Catelyn was doing the negotiating Robb being married would not be on the table.
Lets say that Catelyn does not go to Kings Landing, how does the outcome of what happened to Ned change? If for example Tywin, does capture Ned he dies anyway. Her going there did nothing to prevent Ned's death.
If Robb had gone himself, Frey would have captured him. Anyone else also would have to put marriage on the table because Walder Frey is putting it there for decades now.
DeleteTywin's plan is to capture Ned and exchange him. Catelyn's arrival in King's Landing screws up the timeline of other events, a carefully orchestrated one that leaves Eddard injured after fighting Jaime. Had she not gone there, these events wouldn't have come to pass. I recommend checking out the Race of the Iron Throne for more details on this.
Conclusion: I think you're being way too hard on Catelyn. She made mistakes, she had some really great ideas, and in the end, she certainly didn't lose the War of the Five Kings for Robb.
By the way, Roose Bolton as commander is Robb's idea, not Catelyn's. She names a number of different guys and takes him as the latter of two evils of Robb's foolish choices ;)
DeleteBy your logic then Catelyn is indirectly responsible for the death of Ned. Had she not gone to Kings Landing Ned would have been captured by Tywin, and eventually traded for Jaime.
DeleteI am not generally a Catelyn sympathizer, but just to add to your point about the Iron Born capturing Winterfell, Stefan, that was Robb's fault. Catelyn, in one of her wisest pieces of advice, counseled Robb not to let Theon go back to Balon because Balon was not a man to be trusted. Robb foolishly made that discussion about trusting Theon, rather than listening to her point about Balon or seemingly taking the time to learn anything about Balon, which is further revealed in his poor choice of words in the letter seeking an alliance. Although Balon probably cared little about Theon when making his plan, it was very rational to believe that keeping Theon would be the better way to get Balon's assistance or at least prevent him from attacking the North while it was essentially undefended (indeed, it seemed to have worked since the end of Balon's first rebellion). It is that one instant where the War of the Five Kings is probably lost, even more than Jaime being freed, since Roose and Walder wouldn't have turned cloak. Roose would have remained loyal if the North still had a strong position and Winterfell still had the impression of impregnability, not to mention the army of Rodrik Cassel to repel an invasion, instead of responding to Dagmer Cleftjaw's attack, which was part of Theon's clever (but shortsighted) plan. It seems clear from Asha's dressing down of Theon that she and Balon never would have tried to capture Winterfell without laying much more groundwork. Robb could have returned to the North and put down the rebellion in that time. Walder would have remained loyal because, without Theon's assault on Winterfell and the "deaths" of his brothers, he wouldn't have been so grief stricken that he slept with and married Jeyne Westerling. In fact, without those "deaths", Catelyn wouldn't have been so grief stricken that she released Jaime in the hopes of getting her daughters back.
DeleteExactly.
Delete