Supreme Court of Westeros, ruling 73

Thursday is court day! And we're not on time, in what seems an evolving pattern. Sorry for this.

Welcome to the Supreme Court of Westeros! Every week, three pressing questions from the community will be answered by the esteemed judges Stefan (from your very own Nerdstream Era) and Amin (from A Podcast of Ice and Fire). The rules are simple: we take three questions, and one of us writes a measured analysis. The other one writes a shorter opinion, either concurring or dissenting. The catch is that every week a third judge from the fandom will join us and also write a dissenting or concurring opinion. So if you think you're up to the task - write us an email to stefan_sasse@gmx.de, leave a comment in the post, ask in the APOIAF-forum or contact Amin at his tumblr. Discussion is by no means limited to the court itself, though - feel free to discuss our rulings in the commentary section and ask your own questions through the channels above.

One word on spoilers: we assume that you read all the books, including the Hedge Knight short stories, and watched the current TV episodes. We don't include the spoiler chapters from various sources in the discussion, with the notable exception of Theon I, which was supposed to be in "A Dance with Dragons" anyway.

And now, up to ruling 72 of the Supreme Court of Westeros! Our guest judge this week is Ryan Hodges. He goes by Kinglayer on Tower of the Hand and sardonicsmirk on reddit and the Nerdstream.

by acazigot

Is the vision of Melisandre of Jon being a man, then a wolf and finally a man the key to show how Jon will come back to life?

Main Opinion: Stefan

Sure it is. I mean, why would we have had the Prologue in ADWD explaining in epic length how when you die you go into the beast you are most connected to and remain in there for a period of time before becoming one with it? Jon has at least a few days unferal consciousness before he will become too Ghost-y to be resurrected - and just enough to be scarred by the experience and to have a few Bran-ish dream journeys. I have no clue how he will get back into his body, though. Perhaps one of my fellow judges knows something here.

Concurring Opinion: Amin

I agree with Justice’s Stefan’s opinion. I do think that Jon’s special relationship with Ghost will help buffer him a bit more through the experience than might be expected if pairing with another animal. His body will be ‘kept on ice’, ready for his return to life. Melisandre will play a role in bringing him back, and Jon will be indebted to her for it. I can’t really think of anyone else in the area with the ability to bring him back: Melisandre hasn’t demonstrated that power yet, but only the Red Priests (Thoros, Moqorro) have shown that kind of power yet so she potentially could tap into it as well.

Concurring Opinion: Ryan Hodges

Yes this is the resurrection of Jon Snow. I think that this will also ultimately lead to Jon being released from the Nights Watch. Per the vows of the Nights Watch “It shall not end until my death.” With Jon dying he has completed his oath to the Nights Watch. He will be revived in some fashion similar to Beric Dondarion with some R'hllor Magic, or some Free Folk magic we are not yet familiar with. I am confident he will stay in the North, but he will no longer be bound to the Nights Watch.

Final Verdict: Jon will be resurrected via Ghost.

Does Patchface's prophecy about the shadows dancing refers to the tent where Mirri Maz Duur was "healing" Drogo?

Main Opinion: Stefan

It might be, yes, but there are several shadows coming to dance. Melisandre is summoning at least two of them, one for Renly, one for Cortnay Penrose, and she is talking about shadows and light on more than one occasion. When we stick with the text, however, the “dancing shadows” are seen most poignantly in Dany’s tent, and Patchface might just have seen that scene amidst his host of strange visions.

Concurring Opinion: Amin

I agree that the quotes are more relevant in relation to Melisandre’s shadows. However, it is an interesting question. From what I recall, Patchface mainly talks about things that yet to come, rather than things that have happened, not sure if things that are currently happening in the present. If early A Clash of Kings overlaps with the end A Game of Thrones, then it is possible that Patchface was seeing either the present or the future, but at the moment it seems like the past. I’m not sure why I’m making the distinction because seeing anything would still show some sort of magical power, but I think his shadow talk is more relevant to the importance of Melisandre’s shadow power in A Clash of Kings.

Concurring in part, dissenting in part: Ryan Hodges

The problem with prophecies is that they are hard to decipher until they have already come true. Patchface’s prophecies are definitely the hardest to decode, as he basically speaks in his own language. The problem with this specific one is that it is more vague than most of the others. There are many shadows he could be referring to, the shadows of Mirri, the shadows of Melisandre, the shadows Bran sees in King’s Landing. Every prophet has a mention of shadows. If I had to pick one I would say that I that this speaks specifically to Melisandre's shadows as it is the most relevant to Stannis’ story line. The unanswered question is what he means when he says “the shadows come to stay”. I would guess he is talking about actions that cannot be undone as a result of the shadows.

Final Verdict: Patchface is most likely referring to Melisandre's shadow babies.

Has Mirri's curse ended? The sun sets in the east (Quentyn), the sea (Dothraki) goes dry and mountains blow like winds? Could Dany have a son?

Main Opinion: Stefan

The problem with prophecies is that they are so ambigious that they can come true many times over (think of Dany’s House of the Undying prophecy), and in Mirri Maz Duur’s case we can’t even be sure if it was a prophecy at all. However, given the (likely) miscarriage Dany suffers in the Dothraki Sea in her last chapter of “A Dance with Dragons”, it seems like she isn’t barren anymore, if she ever was. Remember that Daario and Hizdahr are the first sex she has with anyone since the death of Drogo, so who could say if she really was barren in the meantime? “The World of and Fire” also very much strengthens the argument that birthing monsters like Dany’s is in the Targaryen genes and not the result of some demon worshipping. Therefore, I wouldn’t put too much credence with Mirri. Dany can have children, she always could.

Concurring in Part, Dissenting in Part: Amin

It is quite possible that Mirri was lying and/or that she was saying impossible things as part of an expression, rather than revealing some sort of vision or prophecy. It is also possible that she saw the visions related to these things when planning her betrayal of Dany and she figured Dany was barren because she thought such events would be impossible. That would be an interesting twist of the ‘prophecies will bite every time’ theme because in this case she should have interpreted the vision more broadly rather than sticking to the literal events. There is also a meta option here: George may have structured Mirri’s statements in such a way for them to turn out to be ironic, but have no direct in-book-universe explanation. In that case, Mirri did not see any visions, but George makes her uses exaggerating phrases that will catch the reader’s attention at that point and in the later books.

Concurring Opinion: Ryan Hodges

Yes I believe that as stated the prophecy has been fulfilled, if there was one. The question is, will Dany ever have a child? As Justice Stefan stated, Targaryen line has had a long history of infertility. Many women have gotten pregnant only to lose their babies as miscarriages, to have stillborn babies, or to have deformed children. Dany has already had one stillborn/deformed child, and one miscarriage. Genetics have not been kind to the Targaryen line. She could possibly have a child, but history is not in her favor. 

Final Verdict: Mirri is likely not making a prophecy at all.