Welcome to the Supreme Court of Westeros! Every week, three pressing
questions from the community will be answered by the esteemed judges
Stefan (from your very own Nerdstream Era) and Amin (from A Podcast of
Ice and Fire). The rules are simple: we take three questions, and one of
us writes a measured analysis. The other one writes a shorter opinion,
either concurring or dissenting. The catch is that every week a third
judge from the fandom will join us and also write a dissenting or
concurring opinion. So if you think you're up to the task - write us an
email to stefan_sasse@gmx.de, leave a comment in the post, ask in the APOIAF-forum or contact Amin at his tumblr.
Discussion is by no means limited to the court itself, though - feel
free to discuss our rulings in the commentary section and ask your own
questions through the channels above.
One word on spoilers: we assume that you read all the books, including
the Hedge Knight short stories, and watched the current TV episodes. We
don't include the spoiler chapters from various sources in the
discussion, with the notable exception of Theon I, which was supposed to
be in "A Dance with Dragons" anyway.
And now, up to ruling 77 of the Supreme Court of Westeros! Our guest
judge this week is Tom North, an Aussie fan, currently studying film and vocalist in his band semi-active band Cittagazze. He doesn't tend to maintain an active presence in the fandom, mostly lurking and voraciously reading but occasionally pops up on reddit as Captain North or the Race for the Iron Throne comments.
I don't understand how a bunch of city folk killed all those dragons, especially given how easily Drogon fended off the guards in the Pit and how toasted Quentyn got so quickly? Am I missing something or should I just trust that the Shepherds followers could kill those dragons?
Main Opinion: Stefan
Drogon got hit in the pit, staying in there for only a few minutes. He also wasn’t chained to the wall and was able to fly away when things got rough, in addition to having the element of surprise on his side. For reference, look to the other dragon deaths in the Dance. They’re actually not that hard to kill. All you need is a sufficient mass of people mad enough to actually attack them (or disciplined enough). The Free City Fleet brought down a dragon, the Dornish shot one down, and so on. Drogon could have easily died in the pit if it had a roof and the Unsullied charged in. Neither of those conditions was fulfilled, though. So, sure, the mad mob could kill the dragons. I mean they lost THOUSANDS in the process.
Concurring Opinion: Amin
I think Princess and the Queen actually summed it up simply with the example of 1000 rats taking down a bear in the right situation. I wouldn’t say it was easily done either. The dragons in the Pit took out *many* people before they were killed.
Concurring Opinion: Tom
Honestly, I don't really have much else to add here. The dragons were trapped in enclosed space specifically designed so they couldn't escape and were swarmed by thousands and thousands of armed, rioting people. It's like if a human was tied down by their legs and an entire colony of angry red ants was poured onto them - yes the bites are small, but enough of them can kill you. And that's not even a very good comparison, since humans are bigger and more inventive than ants using weapons that can kill dragons rather more easily than an a bite could.
Final Verdict: Yes, of course.
Is Grey wind still alive?
See more here.
Main Opinion: Stefan
You mean the direwolf whose severed head they sowed unto Robb’s dead body and paraded him around for all the world to see? Yeah, sure he’s alive. I mean how couldn’t he? Ok, I turn my sarcasm mode off. No way Grey Wind is still alive. First, why on earth should he be? It makes zero narrative sense to have Robb’s wolf running around somehow playing Wolf in the North or something. This isn’t Narnia. Second, how would he have survived, and why? He was chained up in the kennels in a castle that was closed. Did he open his chains, skinchange and then sneak out? Third, even if he escaped, everyone remembers a freaking direwolf. There are a lot of stories about Nymeria, after all, but no one ever mentions two giant wolves killing prey. Fourth, if he’s not be stalking the Riverlands, how did he get past Moat Cailin? Did he sniff out Howland Reed, who now rides Ghost swinging Dawn to bring it to Jon along with the good news of his heritage? Nah. Grey Wind is dead.
Concurring Opinion: Amin
My fellow judges have covered the submission well: not based on good evidence, not in alignment with narrative purpose, not really interesting if it were true. Each good theory should score highly on at least one axis.
Concurring Opinion: Tom
Look, I understand that it's been almost 4 years since we had a new book and that one was thoroughly deconstructed, with all the plausible theories established, a couple of years ago. There's naturally a desire to keep digging for gold, desperate for that last eureka, once the mine has exhausted. But there really does come a point where all that's left is diminishing returns. We reached that a while ago. This sort of question and theory is the result of slowly losing perspective after being stuck down in the dark of that mine for far too long. Seriously, before you ask stuff like this take a step back, REALLY analyse it and try to do so without looking for the proof of your own hypothesis. It just makes no sense on any level. And if it were actually true, then GRRM would be too shitty a writer to inspire the sort of fan obsession we all share.
Final Verdict: No.
Are the Azor Ahai/Prince Who Was Promised prophecies there to be deconstructed or to occur?
Main Opinion: Stefan
Both. Prophecy is a cock without a hilt who will bite your sword of every time, or something in that vein. It is very plausible that some version of the prophecy will come true, but I expect it to come true not in the fairytale manner of a Prince Who Was Promised coming in on his magical steed with his magical sword rescuing the day (or with a ghost army of green goo, looking at you, Aragorn) but more in a “oh shit” way, in which the arrival of Azor Ahai has some really bad unintended consequences on the side. We have the ground work for this kind of line already laid down with the development of the dragons, who at first seem to really play out for Dany only to start killing little girls.
Concurring Opinion: Amin
I think that prophecies generally do come true in some manner in GRRM’s world, almost to the point that I find it annoying. But GRRM does deconstruct them to some manner, which is the saving grace of having to deal with some of the more accurate prophecies. In regards to Azor Ahai/Prince Who was Promised, I do think there will be more than one person actually fulfilling the role, potentially three, so that is already a twist on the single expected hero.
Concurring Opinion: Tom
In a way, it needs to occur to be deconstructed. GRRM generally messes with prophecy through misinterpretation or accidentally fulfilling requirements while aiming for the opposite. Both methods are fairly common ways of writing about prophecies, so I'm not sure he could even be said to be deconstructing prophecy tropes since what he is doing are tropes themselves. (Yeah, I'm a troper). I'm not sure how he will deal with Azor Ahai, he's given himself way too much wiggle room to make any sort of prediction, but I AM certain he won't deliver it as a straightforward fulfillment.
Final Verdict: Both at the same time. It's not mutually exclusive.
I don't understand how a bunch of city folk killed all those dragons, especially given how easily Drogon fended off the guards in the Pit and how toasted Quentyn got so quickly? Am I missing something or should I just trust that the Shepherds followers could kill those dragons?
Main Opinion: Stefan
Drogon got hit in the pit, staying in there for only a few minutes. He also wasn’t chained to the wall and was able to fly away when things got rough, in addition to having the element of surprise on his side. For reference, look to the other dragon deaths in the Dance. They’re actually not that hard to kill. All you need is a sufficient mass of people mad enough to actually attack them (or disciplined enough). The Free City Fleet brought down a dragon, the Dornish shot one down, and so on. Drogon could have easily died in the pit if it had a roof and the Unsullied charged in. Neither of those conditions was fulfilled, though. So, sure, the mad mob could kill the dragons. I mean they lost THOUSANDS in the process.
Concurring Opinion: Amin
I think Princess and the Queen actually summed it up simply with the example of 1000 rats taking down a bear in the right situation. I wouldn’t say it was easily done either. The dragons in the Pit took out *many* people before they were killed.
Concurring Opinion: Tom
Honestly, I don't really have much else to add here. The dragons were trapped in enclosed space specifically designed so they couldn't escape and were swarmed by thousands and thousands of armed, rioting people. It's like if a human was tied down by their legs and an entire colony of angry red ants was poured onto them - yes the bites are small, but enough of them can kill you. And that's not even a very good comparison, since humans are bigger and more inventive than ants using weapons that can kill dragons rather more easily than an a bite could.
Final Verdict: Yes, of course.
Is Grey wind still alive?
See more here.
Main Opinion: Stefan
You mean the direwolf whose severed head they sowed unto Robb’s dead body and paraded him around for all the world to see? Yeah, sure he’s alive. I mean how couldn’t he? Ok, I turn my sarcasm mode off. No way Grey Wind is still alive. First, why on earth should he be? It makes zero narrative sense to have Robb’s wolf running around somehow playing Wolf in the North or something. This isn’t Narnia. Second, how would he have survived, and why? He was chained up in the kennels in a castle that was closed. Did he open his chains, skinchange and then sneak out? Third, even if he escaped, everyone remembers a freaking direwolf. There are a lot of stories about Nymeria, after all, but no one ever mentions two giant wolves killing prey. Fourth, if he’s not be stalking the Riverlands, how did he get past Moat Cailin? Did he sniff out Howland Reed, who now rides Ghost swinging Dawn to bring it to Jon along with the good news of his heritage? Nah. Grey Wind is dead.
Concurring Opinion: Amin
My fellow judges have covered the submission well: not based on good evidence, not in alignment with narrative purpose, not really interesting if it were true. Each good theory should score highly on at least one axis.
Concurring Opinion: Tom
Look, I understand that it's been almost 4 years since we had a new book and that one was thoroughly deconstructed, with all the plausible theories established, a couple of years ago. There's naturally a desire to keep digging for gold, desperate for that last eureka, once the mine has exhausted. But there really does come a point where all that's left is diminishing returns. We reached that a while ago. This sort of question and theory is the result of slowly losing perspective after being stuck down in the dark of that mine for far too long. Seriously, before you ask stuff like this take a step back, REALLY analyse it and try to do so without looking for the proof of your own hypothesis. It just makes no sense on any level. And if it were actually true, then GRRM would be too shitty a writer to inspire the sort of fan obsession we all share.
Final Verdict: No.
Are the Azor Ahai/Prince Who Was Promised prophecies there to be deconstructed or to occur?
Main Opinion: Stefan
Both. Prophecy is a cock without a hilt who will bite your sword of every time, or something in that vein. It is very plausible that some version of the prophecy will come true, but I expect it to come true not in the fairytale manner of a Prince Who Was Promised coming in on his magical steed with his magical sword rescuing the day (or with a ghost army of green goo, looking at you, Aragorn) but more in a “oh shit” way, in which the arrival of Azor Ahai has some really bad unintended consequences on the side. We have the ground work for this kind of line already laid down with the development of the dragons, who at first seem to really play out for Dany only to start killing little girls.
Concurring Opinion: Amin
I think that prophecies generally do come true in some manner in GRRM’s world, almost to the point that I find it annoying. But GRRM does deconstruct them to some manner, which is the saving grace of having to deal with some of the more accurate prophecies. In regards to Azor Ahai/Prince Who was Promised, I do think there will be more than one person actually fulfilling the role, potentially three, so that is already a twist on the single expected hero.
Concurring Opinion: Tom
In a way, it needs to occur to be deconstructed. GRRM generally messes with prophecy through misinterpretation or accidentally fulfilling requirements while aiming for the opposite. Both methods are fairly common ways of writing about prophecies, so I'm not sure he could even be said to be deconstructing prophecy tropes since what he is doing are tropes themselves. (Yeah, I'm a troper). I'm not sure how he will deal with Azor Ahai, he's given himself way too much wiggle room to make any sort of prediction, but I AM certain he won't deliver it as a straightforward fulfillment.
Final Verdict: Both at the same time. It's not mutually exclusive.
Nice ruling you guys! I would also add that most of the dragons in the Dragonpit were pretty young, and even though deadly, not much of a threat compared to an adult dragon in the air.
ReplyDeleteThe Stallion that mounts the world could be considered a deconstruction (though maybe Dany herself will fulfill it instead of her son) since by all accounts Rhaego was destined to be a great Khal capable of leading a giant army that would eventually devour Essos.
I would like to comment that the "Grey Wind is alive" relies in my opinion on some pretty heavy text-bending and conclusion-jumping.
ReplyDeleteAlso I have a question for the Court, for which there will hopefully be some dissent: What do you think happened with Maegor the Cruel at his coma reanimation and at his death? For example, do you think that Tyanna used dark magic to reanimate him, possibly transforming him into some kind of monster? And why would he die on the throne (presumably suicide) rather than try and destroy his enemies using Balerion?
I think the vast majority of readers believe Melisandra has made a "Shadow Baby" at the Wall. My question is, is it possible that Maester Aemon got her with said "Shadow Baby"? He has the right blood and we're certain it wasn't Jon.
ReplyDelete*got her pregnant?
DeleteDark Sister and Blackfyre, are these two swords destined to come up against one another before the story ends?
ReplyDeleteIf so who will be holding them?