Thursday, May 7, 2015

Supreme Court of Westeros, ruling 76

Thursday is court day!
Welcome to the Supreme Court of Westeros! Every week, three pressing questions from the community will be answered by the esteemed judges Stefan (from your very own Nerdstream Era) and Amin (from A Podcast of Ice and Fire). The rules are simple: we take three questions, and one of us writes a measured analysis. The other one writes a shorter opinion, either concurring or dissenting. The catch is that every week a third judge from the fandom will join us and also write a dissenting or concurring opinion. So if you think you're up to the task - write us an email to stefan_sasse@gmx.de, leave a comment in the post, ask in the APOIAF-forum or contact Amin at his tumblr. Discussion is by no means limited to the court itself, though - feel free to discuss our rulings in the commentary section and ask your own questions through the channels above.
One word on spoilers: we assume that you read all the books, including the Hedge Knight short stories, and watched the current TV episodes. We don't include the spoiler chapters from various sources in the discussion, with the notable exception of Theon I, which was supposed to be in "A Dance with Dragons" anyway.
And now, up to ruling 76 of the Supreme Court of Westeros! Our guest judge this week is Harwood, a member of the community.


Was Ser Loras fostered at Storm's End as part of the deal that brought the Tyrell's back into the King's Peace after Robert's rebellion?

Main Opinion: Amin
I don’t think this was planned initially during the submission at Storm’s End, Loras might not even have been born at the time or was an infant. However, it made a lot of sense later on. Loras needed to be fostered somewhere anyway, and fostering him at Storms’ End would build a stronger connection between the Baratheons and Tyrells. The Loras –Renly connection would likely have been very strong, even if they did not end up as lovers, and it was one of the main connections that almost succeeded in putting Renly on the Throne.

Concurring Opinion: Harwood
Loras may have been alive at the end of Robert’s Rebellion, but he was too young. Additionally, Loras’ older brother Garlan would have proven more useful for this task (or even Margaery!) I assume the Tyrell’s reacceptance into the realm had more to do with Robert’s “quick-to-forgive” nature than anything else. That being said, Justice Amin is correct in saying that the idea worked out very well.

Concurring Opinion: Stefan
Absolutely. Perhaps Robert felt that given how he came into power, grooming “the next generation” is the next logical step. Of course, given his nature, he may soon have abandoned it, or even more likely, given it over to the trusted hands of Jon Arryn. Hell, it might even have been Jon’s idea to start with. Seems like something he would do. Or Mace wanted to get close to power. Really, it can be anyone, because it’s just good politics.

Final Verdict: Not immediately, no, but the idea surely was behind it.

We know that GRRM can write an excellent climax. It seems like a large majority of people consider ASOS the best novel of the series and it really was the climax of the first part of the series. Will GRRM be able to match it with either TWOW or ADOS, or hopefully both, or will ASOS go down as the highpoint of the series?

Main Opinion: Amin
A Storm of Swords is the best book in the series, so far. I believe that George can do better than AFFC/ADWD, though I still enjoyed those books. The chapters on the North were very strong in ADWD and at ASOS level, which shows that ‘he’s still got it’. AFFC/ADWD were the intervening worldbuilding intermission and that is over now. I’m not sure if he can match ASOS in TWOW, but he can get on the upswing and get close in the last book(s). To be honest, he might not reach the same level of ASOS, while still achieving a great conclusion.

Concurring Opinion: Harwood
ASOS was the first “act break” of the series. The second was after ADWD. The last will be at the end of ADOS. Based on general story structure, the rising action will always be more interesting than the falling action. So while I believe that TWOW and ADOS will be less exciting than ASOS, I have faith that he can match his peak in the last books.

Dissenting Opinion: Stefan
I guess the answer to this question hinges on when you started reading the series and how involved you are in fandom. With that level of anticipation, Martin couldn’t satisfy expectations even with the best prose ever. Therefore, no, ADOS won’t beat ASOS, but it is impossible to so now. For people who are only casual readers or come to series after all books are out, this factor will play in much less. 

Final Verdict: Unlikely, but it could still be really, really good. 

My girlfriend, who is new to te series, asked if Tommen died would that mean that Stannis would be heir? Is she right? I cannot find a way that she is wrong but surely the Red Women would kill Tommen to secure this situation.

Main Opinion: Amin
Even if everyone truly believed that Cersei’s children were fathered by Robert, legally Stannis would still be ahead of Myrcella, due to the past rulings of the succession favouring male inheritance for the Iron Throne. The fighting in the Dance with Dragons failed to change that. However, 1) The Lannister, Tyrells and others are not going to follow the technical rule of law to give power to an enemy, when they can hold onto it through other claimants backed by strength of forces 2) Stannis might be considered a ‘traitor’ for going against Joffrey and Tommen, and have his claim discounted in some sort of legal manner. I haven’t fully thought this option out, though.

Concurring Opinion: Harwood
Legally, sure. In practice, no. I have no idea who would follow Tommen in practice, but it wil not be Stannis. He’ll be too busy being the 1,000 Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch.

Dissenting Opinion: Stefan
Stannis is in open rebellion against the Iron Throne. Tommen’s death doesn’t change that. Therefore, the throne will pass to the next eligible heir, but I can’t tell you whether this will be Margaery or some Lannister (the Baratheons have died out). 

Final Verdict: Legally yes, practically no. 

15 comments:

  1. Balon Greyjoy was hosting his longships when Theon arrived. Did Balon do so because Ned was dead (and he thought Robb wouldn't follow through on killing a hostage), because he got word Theon was coming (Theon said ravens were sent and was surprised he wasn't met at the docks), or because he was willing to sacrfice Theon to hurt the North while the opportunity was ripe (Balon thought Theon was half-Stark and from the greenlands, plus he favored Asha as heir)? I imagine he started hosting long before getting word Theon was coming, and was indifferent to the idea that he didn't have to lose Theon in the process.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Balon Greyjoy didn't give a shit about Theon.

      Delete
    2. True, but would he suffer the dishonor of allowing his heir to be executed as a hostage? Theon aside, would he care about how it appeared to his bannermen or the other Lords? If a hostage won't sway Balon, he would be executed next rebellion.

      Delete
    3. Balon regards Theon as dead already and not really his son anymore. Neither he nor other Ironborn would care if he was executed.

      Delete
  2. Qorin Halfhand sent Stonesnake away on foot while running from the Wildlings (ACOK). Will we see him again, or is he a wight, or is he Coldhands?

    ReplyDelete
  3. Isn't the next (actually first) eligible heir Aegon? Yes, I know most [including me] think he's fake, but in a Westeros ravaged by war that can be traced directly back to the end of the Targaryen dynasty, people might flock to the guy that represents the way things were before.

    I have to admit that it didn't occur to me until recently that Stannis is right after Tommen in the line of succession, and it made me wonder if Aegon is in the end just a plot device to give Stannis another obstacle (as well as deliver the greyscale plague that seems like it might be important). Thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No Targaryen is in the line of succession. The line starts with Robert.

      Delete
  4. In which Essosi cities do you expect slavery will get forbidden?

    ReplyDelete
  5. Stannis regards Shireen his heir since he has no male relatives. Wouldn't Myrcella be the heir after Tommen? I could see a scenario where, should Tommen die, Myrcella could marry Trystane Martell and be the monarchs? I could see the Lannisters marrying Myrcella off on the condition that the male adopt her name to keep the "Baratheon" name going. There was mention to Bran that someone was willing to adopt the Hornwood name in order to be heir and keep the line going.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yeah, I totally ditched Myrcella because I regarded her death a given along with Tommen.

      Delete
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