Supreme Court of Westeros, ruling 65

Thursday is court day! This week, in honor of Valentine's Day, we take in not three, not four, but five questions with a context of love. Enjoy! And don't forget the damn roses.

Welcome to the Supreme Court of Westeros! Every week, three pressing questions from the community will be answered by the esteemed judges Stefan (from your very own Nerdstream Era) and Amin (from A Podcast of Ice and Fire). The rules are simple: we take three questions, and one of us writes a measured analysis. The other one writes a shorter opinion, either concurring or dissenting. The catch is that every week a third judge from the fandom will join us and also write a dissenting or concurring opinion. So if you think you're up to the task - write us an email to stefan_sasse@gmx.de, leave a comment in the post, ask in the APOIAF-forum or contact Amin at his tumblr. Discussion is by no means limited to the court itself, though - feel free to discuss our rulings in the commentary section and ask your own questions through the channels above.

One word on spoilers: we assume that you read all the books, including the Hedge Knight short stories, and watched the current TV episodes. We don't include the spoiler chapters from various sources in the discussion, with the notable exception of Theon I, which was supposed to be in "A Dance with Dragons" anyway.
Casting Call: We're searching for guest judges again! If you like to participate, even if you have been part of previous rulings, send us an email.

And now, up to ruling 65 of the Supreme Court of Westeros! Our guest judge this week is Anton Jumelet, a philosophy student living in Amsterdam. He is usually not an active member of the fandom, but does ferociously follow everything ASOIAF-related. He is also a staunch advocate of replacing Machiavelli with Martin in all university curricula.

If there was an equivalent to Valentine’s Day in Westeros, what would it involve and who would celebrate it?

Main Opinion: Amin

The idea of romance coming from Valentine’s Day would potentially fit the Reach quite well. It might be tied into existing ideals of chivalry and honour already there. Surprisingly, the notion might also fit well with the Dornish, in the sense that lovers and paramours are more openly accepted there, so they could openly celebrate if it actually existed. There is already the idea of crowning a Queen of love and beauty at a tournament, which could fit if there was a specific tournament held for that day. On the other hand, I would think the idea of courtship or seeking the hand of a lady is more established in Westeros than being ‘romantic’ once you are already married. So those ladies that are already married may be out of luck in this case, unless a husband is particularly enamored with them.

Concurring opinion: Stefan

It seems like Valentine’s Day would be a feast in honor of the Maid, celebrating young love in a chaste way (officially, at least). The exchange of roses or other tokens of love, singing of songs and composing of verses would fit the thing and the knightly culture (therefore, no northern or Ironborn Valentine’s Day). As the climax (heh) of the day, the lovers could hold hands in public or even exchange a kiss. Whatever happens once the sun sets, of course, is a different matter. And in Dorne, they would laugh at the stupid idiots in the rest of Westeros and fuck just because.

Concurring in Part, Dissenting in Part: Anton

A proper equivalent of Valentine's Day could hardly exist in Westeros (maybe with the exception of Dorne and the lands beyond the Wall). Though it pays lip service to the ideals of courtly love and chivalric romance, its society is essentially too feudal. It couldn't allow encouraging youthful flirtations and solidifying them into stable, public relationships (betrothals, marriages) by everyone sending messages and giving presents to one another. Romantic love is trumped by the need to forge political alliances, to return favors, and not to dishonor yourself or your order, family, friends, and acquaintances. If anything, Westeros would celebrate (or commemorate) the tragedy rather than the comedy of love. Imagine an Anti-Valentine's Day on which Westerosi nobility exclusively celebrate star-crossed love and think about those they love (loved) but cannot (couldn't) have. Either their relationship is forbidden or frustrated, or their significant other is already taken by someone else or has died. On such a day, dreamy maidens would read about Queen Naerys and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. Singers perform bittersweet songs like 'The Seasons of My Love'. Brothels offer discounts. And for all that, the societal norm that dalliances don't equate stable relationships is still reinforced.

Final Verdict: It might fit the chivalric traditions if adapted well, but not the rest. 

Who told Eddard that Lyanna was at the Tower of Joy?

Main Opinion: Amin

I believe it was fairly common knowledge that Rhaegar preferred or had some sort of connection to the Tower of Joy. After King’s Landing was occupied and Lyanna was not there, it would seem to be a natural place for Eddard to turn toward himself, or have someone tell him about. I’m not sure who specifically it would be if it is the latter case, or if even George thought through this particular detail. Even if Lyanna was in a more hard to determine place, there is Howland Reed, who might be able to tap into his abilities to find out where she was. But I don’t think we need to go as far and postulate something like that when there Eddard could have found out more straightforwardly.

Concurring Opinion: Stefan

There isn’t really that great a mystery there. The rebellion took scores of prisoners after the Battle at the Trident, and again in King’s Landing. Someone was bount to know where Rhaegar was before he shored up the Dornish support for his battle. I don’t think that Howland Reed plays into it; at best, he would have dreamt of a tower in red mountains, which is about as useful as nipples on a breastplate. Eddard’s reactions to Catelyn’s superstitions and the direwolves in “A Game of Thrones” pretty much rule that out, though, because if he ever witnessed something like Green Dreams, he wouldn’t dismiss magic the way he does. Therefore, some good old-fashioned intelligence was at work. Eddard fighting out the last battles after Robert was wounded suggests that he only learned of Lyanna’s destination at King’s Landing or even as late as Storm’s End, but I’d think it was the former, with Storm’s End more or less laying on the way.

Concurring in Part, Dissenting in Part: Anton

I also thought that the existence and location of the Tower of Joy were common knowledge, but I cannot find it in the text. However, even if it was an obvious place for Ned to look, you must explain why he believed it was sufficient to bring only six others with him. This suggests that someone did tell him about the situation at the ToJ. Four candidates spring to mind. (1) One of the three knights of the Kingsguard could have sent a raven (presumably to Storm's End where Ned lifted the siege). But why they would do that is unclear. (2) Someone with magical abilities could have 'seen' it. Howland Reed might have had this role. But thus far there's no solid evidence that Howland has any greensight, so this idea remains unfounded as well. The two remaining possibilities are not well-supported either, but a more plausible story can be told about them. (3) It's possible that Ashara Dayne knew the situation at the ToJ, either because Starfall, where she lived, helped supply the ToJ, or because her brother Arthur told her. She might have told Ned in turn (by raven or in person) from a sense of loyalty to the brother and sister of her love Brandon Stark. That her telling Ned led to the death of her own brother may have been a factor in her suicide. (4) Lyanna could have sent a raven herself, maybe even unbeknownst to her attendants. She knew that she couldn't stay at the ToJ forever and supposed that protection for her Targaryen child was most likely to come from honorable Ned. All in all, though, there's too little evidence as yet to make a convincing case for any of these candidates.

Final Verdict: It wasn't that hard to figure out, really.

Is Melisandre the daughter of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar?

See also here.

Main Opinion: Amin

At first glance, I would say it is unlikely because 1) Melisandre remembers she was sold as a slave and it is unlikely Shiera would have fallen so low to allow that to happen 2) Melisandre is not particular good at interpreting visions, compared to her alleged parents (Bloodraven is a master and Seastar was presumably good at whatever magic she mastered) and 3) It is likely that she wears a glamour, which can explain any physical comparisons or connections suggested between characters. Now, is it still possible? Possible, yes. Perhaps beyond the realm of crackpot, but I am not convinced at this time. I note that future submissions to the Court should be provided in written form rather than audio, as I had to locate a written version of the theory to evaluate it.

Concurring Opinion: Stefan

Possible, yes, but highly unlikely. The slavery background doesn’t fit and it is just one connection too many between all of this. Besides, neither Bloodraven nor Shiera Seastar are ever mentioned of having any connection to R’hollor and the Blood Magic stuff.

Dissenting Opinion: Anton

We don't know much about Melisandre, Bloodraven and especially Shiera (most about her comes from a single entry in the So Spake Martin archive). That makes S+B=M difficult to disprove – not a point in its favor – but also plausible given the surprising number of clues that do seem to point in its direction. First, it fits with the known facts that S and B had a sexual relationship and that M is significantly older than she seems. Second, there is a striking resemblance between M and S (heart-shaped face, slim waist, full breasts, beauty, prominent necklace, magical abilities, using those to stay young, knowledgeable, free sexual agent) and between M and B (red eyes, association with the color red, pale skin, tallness, wearing hooded cloaks, magical abilities, moral ambiguity). Not to mention those with her maternal grandmother (magical abilities, using those to stay young, knowledgeable) and her paternal grandmother (name starts with 'Mel'). Third, the theory has merit from a literary point of view. It makes certain prophecies come to fruition in unexpected ways. A dramatic father-daughter confrontation could be in the offing. And it may set up M for a self-sacrifice given that she ironically possesses some king's blood herself. Sure, the theory relies on certain assumptions (e.g., M still looks like a younger version of herself) and conjectures (e.g., S got pregnant from B, went to Lys and was captured by slavers), and you can certainly cast doubt on those. But if forced to make a wager on the truth of the theory, I'd bet it's correct. By the way, I would like to commend the makers of Radio Westeros. Their character-based approach has made it my favorite ASOIAF podcast (all due respect to my podcasting fellow Justices, of course).

Final Verdict: Most likely not, but there isn't much evidence either way. 

Do you think Dany truly loves Daario or are her feeling for him more likely just lust and attraction to danger (like the Meereenese Blot argues)?

Main Opinion: Amin

Somewhere in between lust and love? Dany is still a teenager, and like other teenagers (i.e. Robb Stark), may have trouble with determining the difference. I do agree that the lust and attraction to danger was a crucial motivated Dany’s early interest in Daario. However, she definitely became more attached to him over the course of A Dance with Dragons. At the same time, Dany knows that Daario is not good for her, and could never be more than a paramour. I am certain what Dany feels for Daario at the end of A Dance with Dragons, following her vision walk in the plains. We’ll have to wait and see in the next book. I’lll ask a relevant question for the other judges to comment on as well: does Daario love Dany? I say no, he is just using her, but I’ve heard doubts on the issue.

Concurring in part, dissenting in part: Stefan

I definitely agree that Daario doesn’t love Dany. She admits as much herself, asking herself whether he’d take her if she wasn’t queen, answering in the negative. I do agree wholeheartedly with Adam Feldman on the matter, however. Dany doesn’t love Daario, it’s pure lust. She has been without good sex for a long time, and he presents not only an attractive option for her but also the personification of war and violence she so craves and tries to supress throughout the story arc of “A Dance with Dragons”.

Concurring in Part, Dissenting in Part: Anton

As far as I know, Adam Feldman hasn't argued that Dany doesn’t love Daario. He describes Dany’s character as consisting of two distinct components: the mother and the dragon. The mother is the part of her that longs for peace. The dragon desires war. Dany has grown to fear this second part of her personality and has to repress it to achieve peace in Meereen. Still, she's drawn to the dragon's symbolic representation: Daario. And Feldman claims that Dany, in her final chapter of ADWD, embraces the dragon in her, thereby choosing Daario over Hizdahr. If anything, this analysis supports that Dany has fallen for Daario (I’m less convinced of the reverse, by the way). Dany has always been physically attracted to Daario’s blue eyes and lithe body. But I also think that especially the dragon in her genuinely connects with this amoral, aggressive, and romantic rogue — though they have been lovers for only one month, and the affair was sparked by Dany simply feeling lonely and betrayed. Even if the mother in Dany thinks Daario is cruel and should be avoided, that doesn’t make her other feelings for him superficial. Knowing that you fall in love with the wrong type does not negate the feeling. However, I do think that Dany would be better off with someone who can relate to her inner dragon as well as her inner mother. The ending of ADWD could be promising in this regard. I agree that Dany decides to accept the dragon in herself (not chaining it up anymore). But contrary to Feldman, I believe that Dany also resolves not to use the dragon heedlessly, as in her conquest of Slaver's Bay, but more wisely (reining it in and steering it in the right direction). If Dany can make dragon and mother join forces — like a true Valyrian sphinx — I expect guys like Drogo or Daario lose some of their appeal for her.

Final Verdict: While Daario doesn't love Dany, she may have feelings for him. 

Will any characters find true love and will they be able to live happily ever after (No deaths or one of them marrying someone else for political reasons)?

Main Opinion: Amin

Sure. But I don’t think it will be the big three: Don, Jon, and Tyrion. They have greater duties and responsibilities to face, and the story of Nyssa Nyssa doesn’t bode well. I don’t think George will be going that route with those three. But some characters will certainly find love and have relatively good partnerships. Will we hear about it is another question, as wrapping up romantic loose ends will be low on the priority as the series nears its end. In any case, what is happily ever after? All good things must come to end. Ned and Catelyn had a good ~15 years together before they died, more than 50% of couples don’t make it that long in our contemporary society. If Davos survives, he’ll go back to the wife he loves, with a better record for faithfulness. Perhaps the other judges can think of some examples.

Concurring Opinion: Stefan

Some people will, but most likely not those at center stage, with a notable exception: I’d guess Sansa will finally find some man to love, but on equal terms and not in the stupid fairy tale version she’s been dreaming up for the better part of the first three books. Davos should be one, of course, too.I also hope the Fossoway with his pregant bride from Joffrey's wedding and the "tender and protective gesture" makes it, by the way.

Concurring in Part, Dissenting in Part: Anton

War is coming. Winter too. Only a few members of our main cast will survive this ordeal. It may be too much to ask that they also must overcome their scars and traumas, find someone they truly love, and live together for an extended period. Remember that the novels don't provide many examples of successful couples to begin with. Justice Amin mentions Ned & Catelyn, and Davos & Marya. The few other seemingly happy couples I can think of are Oberyn & Ellaria, Renly & Loras, and Tywin & Joanna. Of course, given the hundreds of characters that pass by, some of them are bound to conclude the series in a way that is sweet rather than bitter. But especially the shippers of the couples that are often proposed in the fandom are setting themselves up for a great disappointment. What pairings are definitely not happening? Neither Gendry nor anyone else will hook up with some seriously traumatized, psychopathic angel of vengeance currently living in Braavos. And Sansa is way too valuable to ever be marrying some grave digging novice on the Quiet Isle. At best, some of those wished for couples have a minor fighting chance. I'd say those are Gilly & Sam, Brienne & Jaime, Roslin & Edmure, and Asha & Qarl (or Tristifer for that matter). But you shouldn't get your hopes up.

Final Verdict: Some people will make it, yes, but not many.