tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post901885238568770516..comments2024-03-29T05:15:06.389+01:00Comments on The Nerdstream Era: Supreme Court of Westeros, ruling 65Stefan Sassehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03504751435668017553noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-60733923145143670092015-02-16T23:02:04.339+01:002015-02-16T23:02:04.339+01:00Much appreciated. Got to think of a topic that wou...Much appreciated. Got to think of a topic that would sufficiently garner interest. Please put in a good word for me if and when I do send an entry, I might use this conversation as a reference :) KrimzonStrikerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399041947125766551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-75867317622793375722015-02-16T22:58:20.119+01:002015-02-16T22:58:20.119+01:00If you like to ^^ Write Johnny, he's responsib...If you like to ^^ Write Johnny, he's responsible. johnny@towerofthehand.comStefan Sassehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504751435668017553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-70335288366560094042015-02-16T22:56:46.007+01:002015-02-16T22:56:46.007+01:00Wait, really? Does that mean I get to write an ess...Wait, really? Does that mean I get to write an essay for towerofthehand now? :DKrimzonStrikerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399041947125766551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-83961667184090847672015-02-16T22:49:51.649+01:002015-02-16T22:49:51.649+01:00OK, now I get your point. I agree. OK, now I get your point. I agree. Stefan Sassehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504751435668017553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-84284302947694710542015-02-16T22:41:49.174+01:002015-02-16T22:41:49.174+01:00Slight edit in the second paragraph for the lines ...Slight edit in the second paragraph for the lines 'And while Brynden holding Riverrun won't save anyone in his mind because that same logic that applies to the political threat posed by Edmure in turn applies to him, the Westerlings insider with him, and the Tully's personal bannermen holding the castle.' <br /><br />I meant to say 'And Brynden surrendering Riverrun won't save anyone in his mind because the same logic that applies to the political threat posed by Edmure also in turn applies to him, the Westerlings inside with him, and the Tully's personal bannermen still holding the castle.'KrimzonStrikerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399041947125766551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-78130912564780671112015-02-16T22:36:40.350+01:002015-02-16T22:36:40.350+01:00And that gets to the tangible reason what Brynden ...And that gets to the tangible reason what Brynden gains by holding Riverrun. If he already thinks he and those soldiers who serve House Tully directly are already dead men because of the potential political threat they represent, then all he can hope to gain is to make sure it costs the Lannisters and the Freys dearly, which a lengthy siege would have done in terms of time, money, and troops should they decide to storm the castle which has never fallen to storm before. In point of fact this strategic objective does work out for Black Fish given that it leaves the Lannister army still stuck in the Riverlands when all the instability hits the capital at around the same time with Cersei's arrest by the Faith and now the city's virtual occupation by the Tyrells, so he scored an indirect victory in a way. Also, that he sent out the non-combatants before the siege speaks well of Brynden once again in this case and why I think he warrants a less harsh light being cast on him taking all these circumstances and perspectives of his into consideration. <br /><br />I will ultimately admit that luck is what saves Edmure's life in the end, but that luck comes in three forms. One, Brynden continuing to hold Riverrun to use as a bargaining chip. Two, Ryman Frey being too stupid and cowardly to make good on his threat long enough for Jamie to arrive. And three, Jamie, the one person on the opposing side whose complex regarding his honor means he's the only one of the enemy commanders who would keep his word to Edmure in the end. So while I don't think Brynden should get the full credit for saving Edmure's life, he doesn't warrent the blame of needlessly putting it at risk either. KrimzonStrikerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399041947125766551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-66404729419600327342015-02-16T22:33:43.851+01:002015-02-16T22:33:43.851+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.KrimzonStrikerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399041947125766551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-13271443591742155862015-02-16T22:33:32.972+01:002015-02-16T22:33:32.972+01:00No, no that's not what I'm saying. Let me ...No, no that's not what I'm saying. Let me break this down sequence by sequence. At the start of the siege I fully concede that Brynden held out fully prepared for Edmure to die. But I argue that his ill feelings to Edmure are not what drives his actions based on the evidence presented to Jamie in the chapter where he reaches the siege line and confirmed by Brynden himself in his discussion with Jaimie the chapter afterwards. Anyone who knows the basics of feudal politics knows Edmure's continued existence is a threat to the Freys and their hold over the Riverlands and in the case of Emmon Frey his hold over Riverrun itself. At this point it isn't a question of if Edmure will die, only when. Given that, why should Brynden logically trade Riverrun for Edmure's life if it won't save him anyway? However, that dynamic takes a different turn when Edmure isn't killed outright. Now Brynden knows that while he still can't save Edmure, his continuing to hold Riverrun can EXTEND Edmure's life for however long Riverrun can last because Ryman Frey is that stupid and Brynden knows it now, so while it doesn't change what Black Fish was prepared to do it does serve to reinforce him doing it in the first place, which Jaimie confirms upon speaking to Brynden about it. And while Brynden holding Riverrun won't save anyone in his mind because that same logic that applies to the political threat posed by Edmure in turn applies to him, the Westerlings insider with him, and the Tully's personal bannermen holding the castle. In his conversations with Jaime Brynden fully expresses his belief that none of them in Riverrun will survive anyway, that the Lannister's and their allies words cannot be trusted after all that's happened going back to Eddards execution. And that's a fair point on his part. <br /><br />My previously stated points are why I think you give Brynden too much blame if we consider things fairly from his perspective. Now to give Bynden credit, which is the fact that when Edmure does come to talk Riverrun down Brynden actually agrees to it. Remember that those same troops with Brynden were prepared to stand by him in letting Edmure die before, now that Edmure's safety inside the castle they now decide to surrender? This to me speaks of Jaime finally giving them a reason to believe, a way out, that if he was willing to risk sending Edmure as a show of good faith then there's at least some hope that they'll make it through this and it speaks well of Brynden that he takes it, though not before slipping away to continue the fight himself. KrimzonStrikerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399041947125766551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-92097743154253645912015-02-16T18:17:15.634+01:002015-02-16T18:17:15.634+01:00Oh, and the failure not to include Edmure in the w...Oh, and the failure not to include Edmure in the war council is Robb's fault. While Brynden in his fits of machismo might be forgiven - he's a tactician, not a strategist, after all - Robb can't make a similar excuse. Stefan Sassehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504751435668017553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-79408716870972311742015-02-16T18:16:12.636+01:002015-02-16T18:16:12.636+01:00You can be as critical as you like, I can take it ...You can be as critical as you like, I can take it ;) <br /><br />But seriously, I don't get the argument. Brynden, who expressly doesn't give a rat's ass about Edmure either way because the war is lost anyway somehow saves his life because Frey is too stupid to kill him until Jaime arrives...? That's where I don't get your point. If "everyone" wanted to kill Edmure so bad, why didn't he die long ago? He's standing up there with a noose around his neck, for crying out loud. Why does Frey keep him alive, sheer stupdity aside, if the Blackfish clearly doesn't negotiate? <br />By the way, I'm not faulting Brynden for not trusting Frey and for not caring that much about Edmure in this situation. You couldn't trust the Freys, that's clear enough. What I fault Brynden for is the decision to hold out at all, because there is no one coming. Stefan Sassehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504751435668017553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-9820151672251321372015-02-16T17:49:54.009+01:002015-02-16T17:49:54.009+01:00That's not true and we both know that, people ...That's not true and we both know that, people don't WANT Riverrun to surrender, they feel that Riverrun has no choice but to ultimately surrender. After the Red Wedding you can't tell me that anyone in the Riverlands is happy with their submission to the Freys. For all the death and destruction of the war tyranny is one of the few alternatives people WANT to choose war over if that's the only way. It simply isn't at this point. And I didn't say Bryden bargained Riverrun for Edmure, I'm saying that Brynden NOT bargaining for Riverrun affords EDMURE the opportunity to bargain for Riverrun, thus once again not negating my point that it saved Edmure's life in the end. Nor did Brynden offer any resistance to Edmure when he entered the castle to surrender it, which he could have done so if he truly didn't care about Edmure's person. I can agree with you to an extent about the failure to include Edmure into the war Council, but in this case as I keep reading through Jaime's chapters prior to Riverrun's surrender it seems like EVERYONE wanted Edmure dead and the only thing keeping him even a little bit was that Riverrun hadn't fallen. Roslin's already pregnant after all. I'm not trying to be critical of you here stefan, I'm just saying that you might have been too harsh on Blackfish in this one instance and ignored his point that in his mind whatever HE did would not have changed Edmure dying. KrimzonStrikerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08817407714880594953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-52456488321618438982015-02-16T15:03:29.823+01:002015-02-16T15:03:29.823+01:00I have just read it and it is very interesting. I ...I have just read it and it is very interesting. I am a big fan of the Blackfish but I can see your point. Edmure does make many mistakes though and he displays very poor leadership skills, so I can see why he is scolded so often. Whether this is because his father has been unwell for so long or it is a personality issue, you can decide. I agree he should have known about the plan but to say it was not formulated does not make attacking the Westerlands sensible because Tywin could have trapped the Northern army in the Westerlands if he gave up Kings Landing.<br />Great read thoughAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-73237552548316150222015-02-16T14:01:18.052+01:002015-02-16T14:01:18.052+01:00It's ongoing. ^^ One important piece is here: ...It's ongoing. ^^ One important piece is here: <br />http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2011/11/17-2-characters-unworthy-of-praise/Stefan Sassehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504751435668017553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-36525876929419765212015-02-16T13:52:57.112+01:002015-02-16T13:52:57.112+01:00When was this discussion about the Blackfish? I wa...When was this discussion about the Blackfish? I want to read itAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-88547655793848476792015-02-16T08:50:59.125+01:002015-02-16T08:50:59.125+01:00Surrendering Riverrun changes a whole lot. It ends...Surrendering Riverrun changes a whole lot. It ends the war and stops the danger of immediate and violent death for all the people involved - the servants and soldiers in the castle, the soldiers outside, the people in the countryside who suffer under the war, and so on and so forth. Literally the only person in the whole of the Riverlands who doesn't want Riverrun to surrender is the Blackfish. <br />I also want to remind you that the Blackfish does, in fact, NOT bargain for Edmure's life, neither with the Frey host nor with Jaime. He shot an arrow at Frey when he came to bargain, and he insults Jaime all the time. He has zero interest in bargaining. For him, Edmure is already dead. The deal is struck with EDMURE, not with the Blackfish. Jaime sends him in the castle, whose legal overlord he is, and Edmure yields it. Not the Blackfish. That one leaves the castle to start a guerilla war in the countryside and prolong utterly useless suffering and to bring even more violence to the people, for naught. He could have chosen an honorable way out - going down in single combat, taking the black - if he had wanted, but he didn't. Stefan Sassehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504751435668017553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-84443730925556079082015-02-16T08:46:44.030+01:002015-02-16T08:46:44.030+01:00In court.In court.Stefan Sassehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504751435668017553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-89237517738921387972015-02-16T08:46:36.628+01:002015-02-16T08:46:36.628+01:00In court. In court. Stefan Sassehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504751435668017553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-60000811543839151832015-02-16T00:01:02.895+01:002015-02-16T00:01:02.895+01:00You know Stefan, as I'm rereading through Feas...You know Stefan, as I'm rereading through Feast and Jamie's chapters I think you might have been too harsh on Blackfish in regards to Edmure during the siege of Riverrun. So many interests want Edmure dead, and they make that plain to Jaimie, which means surrendering Riverrun at that point basically wouldn't have changed anything, in fact HOLDING Riverrun up to that point saves Edmure's life because he can bargain directly with Jaimie for it. That Bryden surrenders the castle when Edmure enters speaks better of his nature on that matter. KrimzonStrikerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09399041947125766551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-85140644943391136222015-02-15T23:15:58.640+01:002015-02-15T23:15:58.640+01:00Do you think Mace Tryell will force Cersei to retu...Do you think Mace Tryell will force Cersei to return to Casterly Rock now Kevan is dead? I think it is a ruse that she will sit as Regent again because the people and faith will not allow it. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-67966809046788751952015-02-13T01:25:07.455+01:002015-02-13T01:25:07.455+01:00Thank you very much, guys! I have one question: do...Thank you very much, guys! I have one question: do you think it possible that Arthur Dayne might have been the "bleeding star" at Jon's birth, to make him (one of) the prince(s) who was promised? <br /><br />Also, to the Tower of Joy question: I never got why it was a mystery how Ned knew. Three of the greatest knights and a beautiful woman had travelled there. They either had a huge supply train, a number of servants, or someone like Arthur Dayne made regular supply trips into the nearest settlement. Neither is exacty subtle. Nevermind that one of the seven Northerners present had been a prisoner at the Red Keep for a while, so very close to any such source of information.Rick Rocktopusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1758815004886180861.post-2841970926890846072015-02-12T23:40:40.471+01:002015-02-12T23:40:40.471+01:00Outstanding guys, out-f*cking-standing! Tackling 5...Outstanding guys, out-f*cking-standing! Tackling 5 questions is just too awesome. Was this the first time? Anyhow, thanks for answering my Dany and "Happily ever After" questions. <br />Yeah, Dany and Daario are probably fond of each other, but they definitely know where they stand and the reality of their situation. <br />Nothing lasts indeed. Some characters will definitely be able to survive with their loved ones, but not that many. Sam and Gilly are probably one of the most likely couples, Bran and Meera too now that I think about it. Bran will probably survive and since Meera can't really go anywhere else for a while they will get the chance to grow closer together, Meera seems to like Bran and he already has a crush on her, who knows.<br />Happy Valentine Guys!Rogerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04817410242359929111noreply@blogger.com