Thursday, September 8, 2016

Supreme Court of Westeros, ruling 144


Thursday is court day!
Welcome to the Supreme Court of Westeros! Every week, three pressing questions from the community will be answered by the esteemed judges Stefan (from your very own Nerdstream Era) and Amin (from A Podcast of Ice and Fire). The rules are simple: we take three questions, and one of us writes a measured analysis. The other one writes a shorter opinion, either concurring or dissenting. The catch is that every week a third judge from the fandom will join us and also write a dissenting or concurring opinion. So if you think you're up to the task - write us an email to stefan_sasse@gmx.de, leave a comment in the post, ask in the APOIAF-forum or contact Amin at his tumblr. Discussion is by no means limited to the court itself, though - feel free to discuss our rulings in the commentary section and ask your own questions through the channels above.
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And now, up to ruling 144! Our guest judge this week is Ryan Hodges. He goes by Kinglayer on Tower of the Hand and sardonicsmirk on reddit and the Nerdstream.

What do you think of Poor Quentyn's response to Stefan's Blackfish criticism that he had no reason to trust Jaime to keep his word? There's a lot of validity to that. And it's questionable whether an assault could have worked given Riverrun's defenses. The siege seemed to be going in the Blackfish's favor, as well. Keeping an army of that size in the field for long enough to starve them out would not be easy with winter coming.

Main Opinion: Stefan
Of course the Blackfish couldn’t trust Jaime. But that’s not really my point. The whole action of the Blackfish - defending Riverrun until the storm - screams of death wish. Fine, but there’s no reason to subject the whole countryside you’ve sworn to protect and the people inside the castle to the same fate you’ve chosen yourself as well. If you want to die, challenge the best fighter in the enemy camp to single combat, or simply walk out on the drawbridge and see who comes calling. Then you’ll die, gloriously, and the result is the same. Even Black Lorren has the decency to advocate for that solution when he and Theon face the same dilemma in Winterfell. My problem isn’t the fate of the Blackfish, but that of the people he condemns to death for his own principled last stand.

Concurring in Part, Dissenting in Part: Amin
Blackfish did not have a reason to trust Jaime. But by the point that he was in that situation, he was already comitted to holding Riverrun at all costs. Jaime’s reputation only reinforced rather than being the main reason for that decision. If you wish to criticize the Blackfish for his intentions, like Justice Stefan does, then you can still do so.

Concurring in part, dissenting in part: Ryan Hodges
The Blackfish may have a death wish, but so might the lesser lords of the Riverlands. If the Tully's lose Riverrun all the lesser lords and their families also lose any titles and lands they hold. To a smaller house death may seem more appealing than say for instance becoming a pauper, living in flea bottom or being a vassal of the Frey's.

Final Verdict: Jaime had no reason to be trusted, but that doesn't make the Blackfish right. 

When or under what circumstances do you see it becoming public knowledge that each of the Stark children are alive?

Main Opinion: Stefan
Rickon will be proclaimed alive when the Manderlys get him and present him to Stannis to make him the lord of Winterfell. Bran’s survival will become public knowledge more as an afterthought to the whole saga, when the dust has settled and interested people realize that, uh, yes, he’s alive too. He will meet up either physically or mentally with Jon and Sansa before, of course, but to the public at large I’ll doubt he’ll become known as a survivor before the Others are defeated. Sansa will be revealed as per Littlefinger’s plan, only prematurely thanks to the abduction attempt by the Mad Mouse, and on Sansa’s own terms rather than Littlefinger’s. Arya will mirror Bran a bit as in that some major players (major from the story standpoint) will learn of her survival, but public knowledge will come after the story’s end. And Jon, of course, will become public knowledge after the resurrection.

Concurring Opinion: Amin
Jon and Sansa (and Rickon to a degree) are the ones that will take the spotlight, all in The Winds of Winter. Bran and Arya don’t have supporters or a power base so there is less reason for people to hear about them.

Concurring in part, dissenting in part: Ryan Hodges
This depends on what you mean by public knowledge. The Stark children may be aware of some, but people outside the family may not. I agree with the majority of Justice Stefan's predictions, I do not think Bran will ever become public knowledge. In the books I believe Bran is going to spend the remainder of the series in the Weirwood's. Arya may not ever see a happy reunion either. I think she will end up being killed in an assassination attempt before meeting all the Starks south of the Wall.

Final Verdict: Jon and Rickon have a guaranteed place in the spotlight in TWOW, as does Sansa. Bran and Arya, on the other hand, will have to wait for ADOS.

How will Tyrion react if he learns he is Aerys' son?

Main Opinion: Stefan
If this is a fact that he learns at all - and I’m really on the fence as to whether this theory is true at the moment - he will likely react similiarily to Jon: being devestated by the news. Like Jon, his whole identity is constructed against the backdrop of his father and his father’s legacy, defining almost every aspect of his psyche. When he would learn that he is Aerys’ son, not Tywin’s, all of Tywin’s slights and attacks, all his abuse would become justified in retrospect for Tyrion. He would really be an abomination, not only a dwarf, but also the bastard of a madman. How’s that? He will second-guess everything he’s done up to the point, and if you look at his arc in “A Dance with Dragons”, you see how far he’s willing to go with internalized self-hatred.

Concurring Opinion: Amin
Tyrion would not be happy to hear it, it will undermine his worldview and what’s left of his feelings as a Lannister. Assuming the theory is true, hopefully he does not find out as there is probably no one left around who could confirm it, other than Barristan but I don’t think he would know directly about Tyrion, more he knows about Aerys’ general intentions toward Joanna.

Dissenting Opinion: Ryan Hodges
I personally do not think this theory will play out in the books. They can only have so many parent twists. If Tyrion did find out I don't think much would change with him. He might drink some more and temporarily be a little more somber but it is not like his hair is going to become silver and magically get purple eyes. The world views him as a Lannister and he sees himself as a Lannister. I don't see any big psychic shift even if this theory proved to be true. 

Final Verdict: Assuming the theory is true, he would not take it well. 

6 comments:

  1. Blackfish's holdout does scream of death wish, but what do you all think of the fact that the siege did seem to be going his way? He said so and Jaime thought so, as well. Without the Edmure trump card, how long could they have stayed in the field? Once winter comes, there will be much more important things to do, even if the Others weren't coming. At the end of winter, who knows what house might be in power and whether that house would care to remove the Tully seat? It's clear that the Lannisters' days are numbered after provoking basically every power in Westeros.

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    1. In the absence of another quick resolution, and as the siege was unsustainable for the Lannister/Frey army, there would have been an assault on Riverrun.
      The defenders being outnumbered 20 to 1 by the Frey and Lannister troops alone, such an assault would have resulted in a Lannister victory - with very heavy losses.

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  3. will there be more supreme courts coming?
    I'm missing them

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    1. We're having issues with the respondance rate currently. Will be back.

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