Thursday, February 18, 2016

Supreme Court of Westeros, ruling 117


Thursday is court day! Sorry for the delay. 
Welcome to the Supreme Court of Westeros! Every week, three pressing questions from the community will be answered by the esteemed judges Stefan (from your very own Nerdstream Era) and Amin (from A Podcast of Ice and Fire). The rules are simple: we take three questions, and one of us writes a measured analysis. The other one writes a shorter opinion, either concurring or dissenting. The catch is that every week a third judge from the fandom will join us and also write a dissenting or concurring opinion. So if you think you're up to the task - write us an email to stefan_sasse@gmx.de, leave a comment in the post, ask in the APOIAF-forum or contact Amin at his tumblr. Discussion is by no means limited to the court itself, though - feel free to discuss our rulings in the commentary section and ask your own questions through the channels above.
One word on spoilers: we assume that you read all the books, including the Hedge Knight short stories, and watched the current TV episodes. We don't include the spoiler chapters from various sources in the discussion, with the notable exception of Theon I, which was supposed to be in "A Dance with Dragons" anyway.
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And now, up to ruling 117! Our guest judge this week is Jack Crowly, an avid outdoorsman, studying in Montana to be a wildlife biologist.

What’s Sandor’s endgame?

Main Opinion: Amin
Well, we already know he is still alive at the Quiet Isle, the main question is whether he leaves it and rejoins the main storyline. I think he will when he hears about Gregor’s return, whether or not he ends up as the Faith’s champion or goes after him on his own, he will head back to King’s Ladning. As an alternative, he may leave if he hears something major happening about Sansa. In either case though, it is unlikely that things will end well for him. His best chance at “happy ending” would be staying at the Queit Isle in his new life.

Dissenting Opinion: Stefan
While it may be possible that we run into him again in Sansa’s or Arya’s POV, I don’t think he’ll become involved in the main storyline again. He has finally found his peace, and I think he will try to keep it.

Dissenting opinion: Jack Crowley
While it is clear that The Gravedigger is The Hound, he is twice described as being lamed and lurching. A man who can't even walk properly has no chance of defeating Robert Strong in a trial by combat, and no use to Sansa Stark. Without his martial prowess I find it hard to believe Sandor will figure into the plot in any meaningful way. He'll live out his days on the Quiet Isle and hopefully find some redemption there.

Final Verdict: Sandor's story is over. 

Since GRRM likes to play with people expectations, do you think that in the end somebody totally unexpected will sit on the Iron Throne?

Main Opinion: Amin
I don’t think someone truly unexpected will sit on the Throne, if there is still a unified Kingdom at the end. Aegon would be the closest thing given that he was revealed relatively recently, but I think he ultimately fails and is revealed by Dany. The thing is, if there is still an Iron Throne, whoever is sitting there must have the support of a significant portion of the realm, which really means a signficant portion of the South. That means it is someone from a well established family , rather than a totally unexpected person. If you are talking about a surprise to the people within the story, then Tyrion would certainly be given his history in King’s Landing, Jon would be given that almost nobody knows of his heritage at the moment. Dany would the least surprise of the three given that she is a known claimant and almost had an army supporting her claim via a political marriage (with the Dothraki) even before gaining access to her dragons.

Dissenting Opinion: Stefan
I fully expect no one (small letters) to sit in the Iron Throne at the end of the series. The throne will be blown to smithereens together with King’s Landing when Chekov’s wildfire goes off, and Dany, Tyrion and Jon won’t survive the final battle at the Heart of Winter. But while all of this is just speculation, of course, for me, the narrative importance simply isn’t on this question, and hasn’t been since the end of “A Storm of Swords”. The true threat to Westeros, from the very beginning in the Prologue, has always been the Others, with the War of the Five Kings and all other attempts at the throne lamentable distractions. The one big lesson to draw of this was formulated by Mormont in “A Game of Thrones”: "Gods save us, boy, you're not blind and you're not stupid. When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?"

Concurring in part, dissenting in part: Jack Crowley
I agree that it's unlikely someone unexpected will take the throne; though if I did have to pick someone, it would be Sansa Stark. Should her marriage with Harold Hardying go through as planned, and something were to happen to Sweetrobin (as planned), Sansa would be poised to move the Vale's considerable military into action. The remnants of the North and the Riverlands would almost certainly support her claim. The Tyrells have already shown themselves as opportunists, so Sansa might gain their support as Stannis and Joffrey did, leaving only half the Golden Company, the Lannister's weakened army, Dorne's small military, and thin spread Ironborn to oppose her. That would also give us some reason as to why George has paid such close attention to Sansa despite her minor role in the plot thus far.

Final Verdict: There will likely be no surprises in who sits the Iron Throne at the end. 

What’s the importance of Hodor to the story?

Main Opinion: Amin
Hodor’s main importance is that he is a loveable fan favourite and that he helps Bran get around (and might be skinchanged into). I do not think he has any other independent contribution to the storyline.

Concurring in part, dissenting in part: Stefan
I agree with Justice Amin’s general sentiment here, but I would like to add that Hodor will be of passive importance because Bran has to learn that dominating him like he currently does with the warging and all is wrong.

Dissenting opinion: Jack Crowley
Hodor's importance in the story is to show that Bran can skinchange into humans, something no other skinchanger has shown the ability to do. Even Varamyr Sixskins, the most experienced and talented skinchanger of the wildlings, fails when he attempts to skinchange into a feeble old lady, while Bran skinchanges into another human inadvertently. Hodor may be a gateway of sorts for Bran to skinchange into other humans as he hones his skills.

Final Verdict: Hodor has no real importance of his own. 

10 comments:

  1. What's the purpose of GRRM reintroducing the hound as The Gravedigger on the Quiet Isle if he won't reenter the story? I feel like he could have left him for dead otherwise...

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    1. Just closure, I think. To see that not everything ends in violence.

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    2. He did leave him for dead in a way. You have to read very closely and make some leaps to get from The Gravedigger to Sandor Clegane; it's not at all obvious from the text (and not confirmed either). For most readers, Sandor Clegane is dead and not coming back.

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  2. If (when) Kings Landing blows up from Dragonfire and/or Wildfire and if there is still a strong Monarchist/Unification force, where would they (or you) build/make the new capitol?

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    1. Daenerys could build a new capitol with her freed slaves and refugees from the winter's war.

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    2. There will be no captial needed, because there won't be no Iron Throne left, nor anyone to sit it. Regionalism is the name of the game.

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  3. Why does Jaime seem to take no pride in being the sire of the new Westerosi dynasty? He's certainly prideful about pretty much everything else. Not knowing of the dire fate awaiting the Seven Kingdoms, one would think you might revel in the knowledge that all future kings will be your descendants.

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  4. How did Ned come to have Ice? Wouldn't his father have had it when he went to King's Landing? If Ice was left at Winterfell because Rickard wanted to avoid exacerbating the situation (although traveling unarmed all that way seems a little crazy), did Ned travel back to Winterfell in the midst of Robert's Rebellion to retrieve it?

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  5. Rickard went to kings landing to bed for Brandon's life and Aerys wasn't known for being level headed. I've would have been seen as a challenge, and possibly too tempting a weapon for it to be in the home of a great house who lost both their valyrian steel swords

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  6. Sorry for the poor grammar, I'm on my phone.

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